doppelganger and Voodoo doll question?

[Space Donkey]

I don't see how you could argue that Reconnect refers to a model by name, it is a very brief spell that places another model under the effect of an ability that references a model by name. Reconnect itself makes no mention of a specific model whatsoever. Conduit however does. Marful's description is about as good as the interaction could be described. Pull out both of the cards and look at them as you read Marful's post, it's spot on. It's also nasty as hell, but far from the most broken combo you can do with her.

[Adran]

Ok, so the arguement is that the Doppleganger cast re-connect, which targets an enemy model. That model is now affected by conduit.

What you are argueing is that the Conduit effect that affects it is on the Voodoo doll. I think I can understand that logic. Lets follow it through.

Now, the rules state that a model can not be affected by more than 1 instance of the same effect unless that effect says it can. There is nothing in the description of Conduit that allows the voodoo doll to be affected by a second Conduit effect, as such whilst the first conduit is still on it, then any attempt to put a second instance of conduit on it will fail. As such, the doppleganger can only cast the re-connect spell if the Voodoo doll doesn't already have a nominated model.

So there is no point in the doppleganger casting it multiple times, not because each cast will end it (as that is not the end condition) but becasue the voodoo doll can not have a second effect of the same name upon it.

[marful]

If doppleganger is casting reconnect - isnt it the "it" in that sentence?

The "It" is in the ability Conduit. The Doppleganger never casts Conduit, nor does it have the talent Conduit. Ergo it can't ever be "it" for a talent it never casts nor has.

[Sybaris]

that's some seriously devious way to use the doppleganger...furthering her uses with Zoraida (combined with the Wp 10 gamble your life combo)

[EnternalVoid]

Alright I was avoiding this debate but I think throwing in a few tidbits might be a good idea at this point before too many people get ideas. This is not a new thing, or more a new debate. Part of this goes back to me a long time ago saying that I was not a fan of the spell Reconnect wording. Or well Conduit as well but making that one better worded is rough. I said long ago that people will get the wrong idea from this and it could be worded better to avoid confusion. I will start off with saying that I Adran is right. Now into the reasoning behind this. First, the link to the FAQ page as it is important for this.

http://www.malifaux.com/FAQ.php

First off, we know Conduit is an Ability and that Abilities are part of Talents. Due to the FAQ on the site we know a few things from this. First that Conduit as an Ability and thus is not an effect. But we do know that Abilities printed on the card can cause effects. We know that Conduit produces an Effect as if you look at the question right above the one I am referring to you see it using Conduit sitting on the Voodoo Doll as an example of an Effect.

At this point we know for a fact that Conduit produces an effect and that the effect does indeed sit on the Voodoo Doll. This is important as Adran brought up the whole, Effects not stacking issue *Page 20 in the small rule book*.

Marful was right; the Doppelganger can indeed mimic Reconnect and when it casts this spell it is not breaking any rule. What was wrong with Marful’s argument was “In essence the talent Conduit doesn't put any effects on any models, only targets these models”. We know from the FAQ that there is an effect and it is put on the Voodoo Doll. Otherwise Marful’s argument was completely on the ball and correct with its break down. It was a VERY good post. It is just important to look at the FAQ to see how that Adran’s post is correct for confirmation.

Conduit the Ability affective produces Conduit the Effect, and the Voodoo Doll cannot have this effect stacked on it multiple times. If we look at the Stacking Examples on Page 20 we can look at the example of the Sorrow and we can see this. It stays that the Sorrow’s Ability, Emotional Stress, has an ongoing effect. And that this ongoing effect is on the Sorrow, not the model being affected by Sorrow’s Ability. This is why they had to reword the Alps to prevent the multiple tests. It does not matter how many times the Doppelganger casts Reconnect because Conduit is an ongoing effect on the Voodoo Doll that will not stack. So you will not have multiple nominated models for Zoraida to target with her spells through Conduit.

What this does give you though, is when you have lost your connection with Conduit, a way to get a new target by mimicking Reconnect, and have the Doppelganger find you a new target for Zoraida without making the Voodoo Doll have to walk over there to do it and thus be out of range to Zoraida to use the ability. This helps when they are hiding from Zoraida or you need those 2 AP a new Voodoo Doll would cost.

[Joel]

that makes sense! thanks for the post

[Space Donkey]

Yeah when looking at it with the FAQ in mind it does all fit together nicely to prevent Reconnect shenanigans.

[marful]

EnternalVoid, thanks for your post!

I was not aware (but I am now) that Conduit was in fact an "effect" titled Conduit. That is something that is not stated in the talent at all, but is clarified specifically in the FAQ.

To quote the section EnternalVoid mentioned:

Q: Can you clarify what an effect is?

A: An effect meets all of the following criteria:

• It is generated during an Encounter
• It sits 'on' a model

• Paralyzed sits on the model which is Paralyzed.
• Conduit sits on the Voodoo Doll.
• Nurse's Massive Dose sits on the target of the Spell.

• Has a defined end time

• Excessive Bleeding lasts until the end of the Encounter.
• Wild Heart lasts until the end of the Turn.
• Damage Effects end once the damage has been applied and you have started Damage Resolution.

So! The effect "Conduit" generated by the talent Conduit contains the "targeting data" (for lack of a better term) of which model is affected by the talent Conduit.

Thus, if a Doppleganger casts Reconnect, it causes the talent Conduit on the Voodoo Doll to create a new effect "Conduit" (which resides on the Voodoo Doll) with the new targeting data. And since a model can only have a single effect by a given name, the previous instance of the effect "Conduit" expires and the new instance of the effect "Conduit" is now on the Voodoo Doll.

[EnternalVoid]

Thus, if a Doppleganger casts Reconnect, it causes the talent Conduit on the Voodoo Doll to create a new effect "Conduit" (which resides on the Voodoo Doll) with the new targeting data. And since a model can only have a single effect by a given name, the previous instance of the effect "Conduit" expires and the new instance of the effect "Conduit" is now on the Voodoo Doll.

I remembered a discussion about Conduit and Reconnect from back when I first started visiting the forums where Ratty had chimed in, thus part of why I remember this stuff. I was the first in my group to play Zoraida so people quickly started trying to take apart how Conduit and all that worked, lead to questions on the boards.

You have it all done well save for one issue I think, on page 20 of the small rule book about Game Effects, it talks about stacking effects. In the first Bullet point second sentence "Ignore Additional applications of the same named effect to that model."

As the Doppelganger is casting Reconnect rather than the the Voodoo Doll as per the wording of Conduit, it will not trigger the part where it removes the previous "Targetting Data". As it is the same effect being applied again, it would ignore the new one rather than overwriting the previous one as per the rule on page 20.

[marful]

I remembered a discussion about Conduit and Reconnect from back when I first started visiting the forums where Ratty had chimed in, thus part of why I remember this stuff. I was the first in my group to play Zoraida so people quickly started trying to take apart how Conduit and all that worked, lead to questions on the boards.

You have it all done well save for one issue I think, on page 20 of the small rule book about Game Effects, it talks about stacking effects. In the first Bullet point second sentence "Ignore Additional applications of the same named effect to that model."

As the Doppelganger is casting Reconnect rather than the the Voodoo Doll as per the wording of Conduit, it will not trigger the part where it removes the previous "Targetting Data". As it is the same effect being applied again, it would ignore the new one rather than overwriting the previous one as per the rule on page 20.

Ah... wow, so a Doppleganger copying Reconnect is completely useless!