Balanced gaming - and please keep this thread nice

[morella]

I was going to post a reply somewhere, stating that I know of no minis game that has ever been balanced in the way that some people think is possible. Then I realized, there are a lot of games I haven't played, so I can't really make such a statement. I have experience with GW dating back to the tail end of RT (1993) and Malifaux, but that's about it, so my experience is limited.

So my question for others is, have you ever found a game that was impervious to being "broken" by power gamers or where every army/faction/master whatever always had an even chance of winning in a competitive environment? I just don't see how it would be possible to design something like that, since the really competitive players do such a good job of finding and exploiting loopholes.

And I don't mean to pick on competitive players, I hope it doesn't come across like that. it takes a certain kind of talent to find these combinations of forces/abilities etc that fluffy players may not pursue. If you're competing in anything, of course you want to exploit any advantages you can find.

[Guy in Suit]

It's pretty tough the 'Break' DnD.

"Oh, so you've min-maxed your paragon path party, huh? Oh $$$$$$$$, wormhole opens and all your magic items disappear - and there's a level 27 dragon who looks huuuunnnggrryyyy!"

[morella]

I've never played any RPG, I'm tactile by nature I think. But then, that seems like a pretty random event . . .
yeah, let's please not go there.

[Chucklemonkey]

The most balanced miniature game I have experienced to date is Warmachine/Hordes. Whilst there are certainly bad match ups that can occur I think PP in general do a good job on that front.

That game is however simpler in it's mechanics than Malifaux (significantly less special rules per model) and as such I think it is much easier to control the balance between factions.

One of the things that drew me to Malifaux was the narrative, story based encounters and it was for that reason that I was vocally against tournament rankings being introduced here in the UK. Luckily, one of my fears in this regard was unfounded as there are still plenty of unranked events. I do still feel that Wyrd should review that decision - as they indicated they would at the time - and decide what direction they want to head in: Tournament & Competitive game v Fun/Social Story based.

I still say that you do not need a perfectly balanced game to have an enjoyable, thematic experience on the tabletop with people of a like mind and that is all I ask for in a game really.

[Boscotopia]

"No is implies an ought"
-David Hume
Rather than say, "no one else is balanced, so we don't have to be," why not listen to the feedback being given and be the first mini that is balanced. If indeed these pro-gamers find the problems, why not utilize them for play testing because whomever they have now is terrible...... I mean Microsoft terrible. How many patches does it take to get it right?

[fishtank]

Warmachine has it's fair share of over/underpowered nonsense though. Always has done since the earliest Sorscha AoE spam lists, through Denny/Nightmare/DJ nonsense into whatever the latest powercreep is. I love the world and the game, but there's way too many powergamers in it. Fluffy lists, even the theme lists, rarely stand a chance, and scenarios are rarely relevent except as an after thought to Caster Kill.

The idea that any game more complex than Chess is truly balanced is a fallacy.

[morella]

I made a blog post relating my thoughts on that - I just really don't care about tournaments, or really even winning. I have other interests in which to test my mettle (though I get that others enjoy that enivronment, and I have no problem with it), but I love the gaming hobby in its sum more than its parts. So I absolutely agree that there is agreat deal of enjoyment to be had in a not-perfectly balanced arena. And imbalance can provide unique opportunities and challenges, especially form a story aspect.

[Chucklemonkey]

Warmachine has it's fair share of over/underpowered nonsense though. Always has done since the earliest Sorscha AoE spam lists, through Denny/Nightmare/DJ nonsense into whatever the latest powercreep is. I love the world and the game, but there's way too many powergamers in it. Fluffy lists, even the theme lists, rarely stand a chance, and scenarios are rarely relevent except as an after thought to Caster Kill.

The idea that any game more complex than Chess is truly balanced is a fallacy.

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree with you entirely but I do honestly believe that all of the factions have access to those crazy combinations. At least in my experience thus far.

[Serigala]

Historical games.
I haven't played too many, but on the basis that they are grounded in fact rather than fantasy, and that generally opposing sides are fairly equal in terms of the equipment available to them, there is not much room for abuse.
I suspect if you decided to try a spam list in Flames of War or Napoleonics you would be laughed off the table.

[morella]

And Boscotopia, my point was, in my experience, companies fix one problem, and another always appears. I just don't see that that richness and complexity can coexist with balance, although I am a mathematician, so maybe I just have a different concept of balance, which is the other reason I started this thread, to get others ideas on what that might actually mean.

And by the way, I've been here since the beginning of the game, and this company has never sat back and done nothing about issues that need fixing. A few months or even a year is actually quite soon for fixes based on my experience with the gaming world.