Model's Defense stat by faction - who's the worst? Who's the best?

[Forar]

It'd be impossible to account for across the hundreds/thousands of playgroups in the world, but it occurs to me that some of the averaging might do well to consider the models as a whole as well.

Which is to say that surely there are some outliers (high and low even) that aren't used commonly enough to justify equal weighting. Sure, Model X might have a great/terrible DF, but if it's never used then it's artificially bringing up/down the average for the faction.

I'm still new and am not familiar enough with the game outside of my commonly used masters/factions to say this with concrete examples, but I know there are at least a few models that seem to be 'universally panned' as it were, so if they're included as equals amongst their peers, isn't that throwing off the numbers?

Edit: also, you can't see me, but I'm looking so smug right now, and will point this thread out to my friends the next time I get grief for how 'overpowered' Guild minions supposedly are, pound for pound by SS cost at least.

[dgraz]

Edit: also, you can't see me, but I'm looking so smug right now, and will point this thread out to my friends the next time I get grief for how 'overpowered' Guild minions supposedly are, pound for pound by SS cost at least.

Don't be confused by these useless stats! Guild is clearly the greatest faction!

2012!!!!
The year of the Ram!!!

[rancor709]

In the Calmdown - Malifaux suggestions thread there was a comment made that really intrigued me. The comment was:



I will admit that this just adds to my Reser-curiosity appearance as a number of recent activities have. In addition, I started to wonder not only how accurate this statement was, but also who was the best/worst from a faction standpoint.

Thankfully Rotating Panda has an amazing thread he named Malifaux by the Number. I emailed with RP a bit and he shared some of the numbers with me. I dug through them and here is what I found:

On Defense for just minions:

Faction	Avg Df	High Df	Low Df
Neverborn	4.89	Candy, Kade (7)	Bad JuJu (3)
Arcanist	4.74	Coryphee Duet (7)	Ice Golem (2)
Resurrectionists	4.45	Bete (7)	Mindless Zombie (2)
Outcasts	4.34	Bishop, Piglet (6)	Pigapult (1), Desolation Engine (2)
Guild	4.27	Witchling Handler (6)	Executioner, Guardian, Lawyer, Ryle (3)

So, by averaged Res are actually right in the middle of the pack. I found it interesting that Guild was at the bottom, but they also have far fewer outliers overall to drag the total up or down.

That made me want to look at just counts. How many models were at which defense in the faction:

This look I found to be the most interesting in terms of the original comment. In reality, Resers have the second highest number of Df 5 models in the game, behind outcasts. Thier distribution is actually at the higher end of defense across thier models, compared to other factions.

So, after reading through all that and looking at the numbers, here is a quick question for the community. Do these numbers line up with your feelings about your chosen faction? Were you surprised by anything in here?

Nix,

Quiet your going to blow a good thing we got going. The bigger thing is perception of the harder hits coming from mechanics within the game. Additionally we have a master all be it he's slow as all get out that actually ups those defensive numbers by 2. So yeah as always let's not let math get in the way of perception or cloud the issues.

Arcanists def was a nice change of pace for me a resser player.

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------

Could be:

Master's DF in game (Raw Stat highest to lowest)

1. Df 8 - Perdita / Lilith
2. Df 6 - Colette / Som'er / Viktoria
3. Df 5 - Marcus / Justice / Zoraida / Hamelin
4. Df 4 - Criid / LCB / McMourning / Seamus
5. Df 3 - Rasputina / Hoffman / Nicodem
6. Df 2 - Pandora / Dreamer / Leviticus / Kirai

Keep in mind that several of these masters have other defenses, these are just raw stats. From the looks of this list, Ressers seem to suffer not coming in until they get to an "average" Df 4 and then fill out the lower levels. At the same token, the lowest DF Masters all have some sort of hyper protection as well. (Pandora - opposed WP and push, Dreamer - cannot be targeted, Levi - likes to die, Kirai - seishin)

Its a good point that the impression for bad defense in the game might be just from the Masters themselves, as the Masters are fairly memorable within the game. This could sway the whole perception away from actuality fairly quickly.

this is the genius of the perception. The minions work best with the masters, and the masters can easily be brought down by combination of little to no df, and small soulstone pools. That is why I yearn for a universal soulstone cache for all masters, That way no one can cry on it, and I'd like to see lower def masters gain additional mitgation, oh wait everyone has that but seamus.

[nix]

It was pointed out to me today on the way to a tournament that I am a "woman of promiscuous values" when it comes to my interests. I made the comment that I seem to be drawn to a closeted fascination for Ressers, and it was said that I have a not-exactly-hidden fascination for anyone who complains about the game. Especially when those complaints are blanket complaints like "our faction sucks".

I need to keep my nose in my own factions... Guild, Neverborn, and some Arcanists.

[Forar]

Don't be confused by these useless stats! Guild is clearly the greatest faction!
2012!!!!
The year of the Ram!!!

Oh, no argument. I've snagged all 4 masters and have fielded 3 of them to date (have yet to actually use LJ), with a little dabbling in Arcanists (Ramos and Kaeris).

My friends just seem to be continually astounded by the base stats (DF, WP, CB) on the work horse 4-5'ish SS Guild minions.

Hence the smugness to see that (before all other factors are accounted for) that the Guild isn't the top of the heap, at least by those base numbers they seem so concerned by. :P

[dgraz]

All the best players play Guild.

[ProdigalPunk]

You are sort of looking at it wrong. The stuff below Df 4 does not matter. It is only the higher end Df that matters. The enlargement is not about not being able to hit consistently it is not being able to hit them at all. I do not have my books, so I can not actually look at the models in the Rezzer faction that have such high Df, so I will take the numbers at face value. However the numbers that matter are the Df 5+ and more importantly the Df of 6 or 7. Not being able to hit at all is the thing that is problematic. Rezzers have very few if any models that are typically able to be saved. If you have a Df of 6 then a lot of models can not hit you at all if you have high cards in your hands.

The other thing, which I can not do that good of a job defending without my books, is what value of the models with the high Df. Belles have typically low Df, but that is fine, they are there to take hits, they are designed to take hits. I can not think of many Rezzers that should be avoiding hits (mostly Masters) with High Def. Bette is the only one that comes to mind. Neverborn is the opposite of this. They have a lot of fragile models, but they are very hard to hit. Sometimes impossible to hit. Most of the models they need to keep alive, they have the opportunity to actually keep alive. It takes the risk out of things. Even with hard to wound 2 you can still take severe damage, and you are probably going to be taking at least 2 or 3 damage every attack. So on average 5 damage a turn. With very high Def you are avoiding damage and all together. Avoidance is much greater then mitigation. Everything in the 3-5 range is honestly a wash in my opinion as most things will have stats in that range and the randomness of the cards is a bigger factor then the cards in ones hand.

Finally, and this sort of has to do with avoidance, is that really high Df is more then likely to make you be the one that cheats second. This is incredibly advantageous.

I do not have a problem with Rezzers as they are built, but I think the design philosophy does not fully take the difference of mitigation and avoidance into consideration.

[ravenborne]

Disclaimer: I am not in the "rezzers are the worst faction camp", but I think they have a couple of design concerns. I will just add my opinion that the issues with Rezzers don't have to do with their base stats. It's the add on abilities and combos that matter.

If you look at the numbers, you can see that the base stats were largely balanced and establish a baseline set to work from. It's rating the talents that makes comparison most important and yet most difficult.

---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

Most important for me is I am interested in where a perception (Reser's have low defense) to real statements (Reser's have terrible DF stats and are easy to hit). The statistics are only as good as the result you are trying to use them for.

I think the perception question is most relevant. As was said, models that don't get used often skew the data.

Speaking as a Rezzer player, if I have any "df perception", it might be from the first few things that come to mind:

Rotten Belles, use them in most lists, and with a Df 3 they are always getting hit.

Nicodem Df 3 is very low for a Master, but he has zombie mitigation, so the Df stat is misleading

McMourning and Seamus Df 4 feels below average for a Master. by the numbers, it seems to be.

Kirai is very easy to hit, Df 2 but one of the hardest Masters to catch and has Seshin mitigation, so the base numbers

Canine Remains are pretty hard to hit for being so cheap, I am always happy with what a problem they cause people.

Bette Noir: Df 7 but only 4 wounds, but the model has a mechanic for getting around death and her dying is expected- she totally skews the data.

Dead Rider is above average at 5 and feels like it generally.

Rezzers in general actually are more survivable than most Masters, and so the base stats don't tell us a lot.



What is needed, I might add, is an equation that calculates the expected cost for a model based on stats + abilities. Its a little side project I am working on when I can find time, but the variables are many...

[Grimace Ortega]

All the best players play Guild.

Yeah they do.