Suggested Lilith Changes

[ukrocky]

It's the same as Lady J and she doesn't need to be magical


About Lilith defence, apart from have a really high defence stat and defence trigger, pretty much give her the highest defence in game but I do find it a bit lacking. In a sense that all Lilith is a big beatstick with high defence in a crew of big beatstick

Errrr...transposition can be useful if you wanna play her non-beaststick like.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Errrr...transposition can be useful if you wanna play her non-beaststick like.

True, but rest of the crew are about generating and using blood counter to grow/mature or turn the tot's into Lelu and Lilitu's. Lilith doesn't get involved here, what I'm saying is you can a lilith crew with any of the other Neverborn masters and would be just as effective

[ukrocky]

And all this is opposed to masters like Marcus who has no movement/swapping tricks, lower defense, hits weaker and so on. How hard for Lilith :P

[Q'iq'el]

I'm not sure how people play Lilith to think they don't need Df 8. It's the second post recently I've seen lowering her Df suggested.

For me this is the single most used stat in every game. What she does and how I use her happens because of her Df8, and her speed. Getting Irresistible instead would break the model for me. She is not supposed to avoid combat. She's supposed to stick in and tank for the rest of the crew - the Wicked is there so that the opponent cannot ignore her and has to fight. Irresistible on the other hand is there to discourage people from wasting AP on attacking models they may not have to fight. An Ability with exactly opposite purpose.

That's how I see it, but obviously it may be playstyle issue.


The fact she doesn't generate Blood Counters when she uses Brood Mother is an annoyance, but I suppose it is a balancing factor.


Sign me in with "no change needed" crowd.

[bashamer]

letting her farm blood counters w/ blood sense would be really weird. It would make her crazy effective in a grow list, and well.... I prefer to have my masters not as pigeon holed.

So yeah, I prefer not to the changes proposed.

Def 8 is annoying, but honestly who doesn't know of a way around that.

[Mournafein]

I'd really like the blood sense idea. It just doesn't make much sense to me that she doesn't have it and Nekima and bbs do. The master has to waste ap to drain blood but two minions don't? =\ I almost never use Alluring, too... I'm not sure how much I should use it... But the extra attack is almost always worth it.

As far as the rezzers, you were saying, chocobo, they have Kirai (Spirit crew, 'Nough said), McMourning (6" melee, crazy triggers, healmonger), Seamus (Heavy ranged damage, summons, luring, etc), and Nicodem (I'm not overly familiar with him). So really, you're looking at getting more attacks in or with more effects... So, either Lilith will waste cards and Soulstones to avoid damage... Or they'll miss... I'm thinking they'll miss some, but some WILL get through... So, either way you're looking at either Df 10 and defending up... Or df 8 and trying their luck.

But I'm not saying your logic doesn't make sense... I'm simply saying that the practicality of it is like pushing Lilith to avoid melee more. I like being able to throw her in.

Does any of what I'm saying make sense, or am I just an idiot? Haha.

[cain]

It's the same as Lady J and she doesn't need to be magical

Lady J. gets +2 damage without help, and up to extra +2 with DM support. 7-8-10 Damage is a bit different story, Lilith has no way to get a damage boost.

And all this is opposed to masters like Marcus who has no movement/swapping tricks, lower defense, hits weaker and so on. How hard for Lilith :P

His damage is the same as Liliths (with Bear) but without the +flip. And its magical.
And we dont talk about throwing a Wp-attacking Shikome into Liliths face after howling.
He may be a bit underwhelming, but he still has some stuff to show if you dont respect him.

Such as Ressers. You then have to kill her with minions, which is nigh on impossible.

You dont have to. When i face Nicodem it always ends up with: Look what a beautiful RigorMortis statue. Or against Seamus she runs away like a small girl. The normal Lilith demon force is so weak to any Wp-based duels.

[Fetid Strumpet]

How does Lilith run away from Terror other than exceptionally bad luck? She has a really good WP of 6, and the ability to use SS, and even aSeamus has no way to force you to fail by spending stones or cheating high cards.

[cain]

If you need a 10 vs an unsupported Seamus, failing is not always bad lucks faulth. More when -Wp effects from other models kick in.

even aSeamus has no way to force you to fail by spending stones or cheating high cards

Jack Daw anyone?

[marful]

The key point here, is that Lilith is superfluous in a Grow List. Any other Neverborn Master can run a Grow List just as well due to the way you generate Blood Counters via Desperate Mercs (or Spawn Mothers + Grupps) and not with Blood From Stone. And a being the "mother of monsters" she should be doing something that benifits a grow list.


The only two abilities she has that directly interact with other Nephilim are Brood mother and Blood From Stone.

While Brood Mother allows Lilith to tag team another model, it doesn't really allow Lilith to synergize with other Nephilim, it just allows Lilith to beatstick down a single model. Which, is very useful and has allowed me to achieve objectives many times (particularly in combination with a transposition to isolate a target next to Lilith and Nekima who were hiding behind terrain) but does nothing for Nephilim in general.

Blood from Stone is a horrible conversion ratio of 2 Soulstone for 1 Blood Counter. A Desperate Merc is a much better Soulstone to Blood Counter return. All successful grow lists require a Desperate Merc (or 2) or a Spawn Mother + Grupps. The only time this talent is useful is when you have a Terror Tot to grow and you aren't running a grow list and you don't have a Black Blood Shaman or something to feed on. Even then growing the Terror Tot is situational as you need that 9 or greater in your hand to get the spell off. And if you stop and think about how absurd it would be to have Lilith hire a mercenary just to feed on it every time she was about to get into a scrap; it's really quite silly!

Another thing I find odd, is that Lilith, nor Nekima actually do anything with Blood Counters. Except spend it on Terror Tots or Young Nephilim. And if you aren't running a grow list, there is no point to Blood Counters. I'd like to see Blood Counters useful for something other than growing Terror Tots or Young Nephilim (or the Black Blood Shaman).

As to Lilith's stats? I think they are really solid. Her defense and defensive trigger are huge. Actually they are freaking huge! Defensively, Lilith is slightly over powered requiring a soulstone user or high point cost Minion with a on attack to really successfully take down. Which means she doesn't need to burn through soulstones to defend herself against lesser minions and only against other big minions and masters.

Again, offensively, Lilith is fine. While her Greatsword doesn't end up doing as much damage as Lady Justice will do (due to Lady J. having Critical Strike and Sword Style), Lilith is Fast and her Greatsword always gets :fate on damage flips (Whereas Lady J. has to choose between 3 abilities only one of which receives :fate on damage flips). While Lilith is definitely a beatstick, she is not supposed to be the greatest of the beatsticks. I think those should be relegated to Lady J. and to a lesser extent, Nekima.




If I were to change Lillith, I would also change Nekima simultaneously.

First, I'd change Blood From Stone from a 2 to 1 Soulstone to Blood Counter ratio to a 1 to 1 ratio. I think the 1 AP cost is fine as it forces Lilith to choose whether she is going to help grow Nephilim or do things herself. Allowing her to do both is a little too much.

Second, I'd give Lilith Blood Sense. Self explanatory.

Third, I'd remove Nurture Nephilim and Nephilim Heart from Nekima and give it to Lilith. (Makes more sense, as Lilith is the "Mother of Monsters" and Nephilim Heart has been changed to only affect Terror Tots and Young Nephilim.)

The last change to Lilith (and Nekima) would be a new abililty that allows them to use Blood Counters to perform Healing flips and only healing flips. Call it Quicken Blood or something. Allowing Lilith use them as straight Soulstones is too much considering how easily Lilith would generate them with Blood Sense and Drain Blood. I'd possibly drop Lilith's Soulstone cache by one over this last ability, but to really utilize it, it would mean you weren't spending the blood counters on growing things, which is a trade off. This one isn't a really necessary change but it allows Lilith (and possibly Nekima) to actually do something with Blood Counters if they aren't running a grow list.

This would allow Lilith to actually be the premier choice of Neverborn Masters for running grow lists (as she would actually do stuff for them) and allow you to run a grow list without having to take Nekima as well as 1-2 Desperate Mercs to feed upon (which is 15-17 Soulstone total...)



And since we've already taken 2 abilities away from Nekima (and possibly given her "Quicken Blood"), I'd swap the Throw Aside trigger with Onslaught and give her Alluring (either as a spell or talent) and call it a day. Alluring + Terrible Beauty means that Nekima will be strong in melee, wont get charged and will have to be taken down by range (which doesn't seem to be a big problem to do against her). She still has Irresistible which offsets her average defense and with Quicken Blood she wouldn't need 12 wounds and could be dropped to 10 WD or possibly 9-8.