Suggested Lilith Changes

[Q'iq'el]

The key point here, is that Lilith is superfluous in a Grow List. Any other Neverborn Master can run a Grow List just as well due to the way you generate Blood Counters via Desperate Mercs (or Spawn Mothers + Grupps) and not with Blood From Stone. And a being the "mother of monsters" she should be doing something that benifits a grow list..

Actually you'll find just as many Lilith players, especially among the old hands, who want Growth list to be gone and done with. Lilith is a frontline fighter who attracts the entire attention of the opponent to herself, while her kids do the nasty to the unexpecting victims. It shouldn't be about getting two Mature Nephilim in turn 1, it should be about movement, speed, tanking and properly executed multi-model charges.

As is Lilith helps with that reasonably well and we don't want her changed into something else. This is how she appears in the original fluff, this is how she should stay.

Black Blood Shaman is actually solid enough in his support role for that play style. A bit too slow, but that can be mitigated. Nekima on the other hand is complete mistake - a Growth list factory, when we needed something big to mesh with Lilith well... perhaps give some new tricks to the Nephilim.

But Nekima is being reworked and hopefully the Growth list will be gone altogether, once she is done with.


Being Mother of Monsters doesn't make you a child-growing machine, just like a Father of Mafia isn't standing there with bottles of milk and 4 Toddlers on each arm.

---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 PM ----------

And let me add this, if you don't burn SS on defending Lilith, what do you burn them on? Because her Df may be high, but her Wd count is average. If you use her as the proper tank she is, my experience is as follow:

Out of 8 SS:

1-2 go for Transposition or Blood from Stone, depending on the opponent, game etc. But usually at least once per game I need to pull these so badly, I spend SS on those.
1 goes for initiative reflip in some scenarios. There are Strategies Lilith crew has really hard time with and you need to SS the initiative flips every now and then. Hardly ever more often than once per game.
1-2 go to boost the Strikes - she isn't there to kill models, her minions do it well enough. She just needs to keep the treat up so that the opponents keep focusing on her. So only when there is a good opportunity for a kill, she'll SS it.
4+ go for defense - either to boost her Df against really strong attacks (to ensure the trigger goes off) or to save her from Wp attacks.

No if the opponent is heavy on Wp attacks, you'll easily burn 8SS just on that - after all there will be more coming than 2-3 attacks a turn.



There are crews which do not task her Df, true. Then there are Punk Zombies or Rasputina where letting just one strike through can cost you your master.

[Boscotopia]

Lady J. gets +2 damage without help, and up to extra +2 with DM support. 7-8-10 Damage is a bit different story, Lilith has no way to get a damage boost.

Where do you get this?

Lady Justice can improve her chance to hit and also improve her chance to do Severe damage, but her damage spread stays at 4/5/7. It would be nice if it was magical or was as powerful as you think it is. Lady J at 7/8/10 would be awesome........... but not fun for my opponent. Also, Death Marshals do not have any damage buffs besides their own +1 for Critical Strike on my cards. How do they give Lady J +2 damage?

---------- Post added 07-03-2012 at 12:02 AM ---------- Previous post was 07-02-2012 at 11:57 PM ----------

I do correct myself...... it is +1 for every ram, so she could do at most 6/7/9 if she flipped/cheated a high ram and burned a soulstone and flipped another Ram. Not likely to get two Rams in a flip to add to the Ram that she already has, but still possible.

[Mournafein]

Q, once again, you earn my respect for your opinion.

Though I do wish they'd fix nephilim, as well (Grow lists, Nekima, Lilith not getting blood counters, aLilith being blood counter deprived, etc).

[marful]

Actually you'll find just as many Lilith players, especially among the old hands, who want Growth list to be gone and done with. Lilith is a frontline fighter who attracts the entire attention of the opponent to herself, while her kids do the nasty to the unexpecting victims. It shouldn't be about getting two Mature Nephilim in turn 1, it should be about movement, speed, tanking and properly executed multi-model charges.

As is Lilith helps with that reasonably well and we don't want her changed into something else. This is how she appears in the original fluff, this is how she should stay.

I believe the "growth" mechanic is an intrinsic mechanic that has been around since Book 1. I don't see how you can then argue for doing away this growth mechanic and simultaneously quote Lilith as being "how she appears in the original fluff". And with my proposed changes, she would still have the option to be "a frontline fighter who attracts the entire attention of the opponent to herself" like you say "many" Lilith Players want and have the option to benefit a grow list as well.

She loses and gains absolutely nothing herself as all of the proposed changes are focused on providing for tots and young and don't boost her own combat/defense/survivability (with the exception of being able to spend Blood Counters like Soulstones to make a healing flip).

But Nekima is being reworked and hopefully the Growth list will be cone altogether, once she is done with.

Again, I don't understand your desire to completely do away with Growth lists all together. That proposal would require changes to five models or make them obsolete (tot/young/mature nephilim, BBS and Nekima). Why exactly should an established theme be done away with completely? Is it simply because this play style is unpopular? Are there some who feel this play style overpowered? Other than repeatedly stating that you want to do away with Grow Lists, can you explain why, this established theme/mechanic should be done away with?

Being Mother of Monsters doesn't make you a child-growing machine, just like a Father of Mafia isn't standing there with bottles of milk and 4 Toddlers on each arm.

If Being the "Mother of Monsters" means you aren't supposed to benefit/boost "monsters" directly, what exactly is it supposed to me? Being the "mother" of something with models labeled "tot" (toddler), "young" and "mature" and providing them liquid to grow into larger monsters is quite a bit different than just being the head of a criminal organization and simply leading them into combat. Your comparison to a Mafia Don is a somewhat false analogy and falls apart given the mechanics of a grow list and the naming scheme of the models involved and as well as the names of their abilities.

And let me add this, if you don't burn SS on defending Lilith, what do you burn them on?

Instead of getting your 2, possibly 3 blood counters from a 2 Soulstone model (Desperate Mercenary), you instead use Blood From Stone. Whereas before you would spend 2 Soulstone to bring a model whose sole purpose is to die to get blood counters, you simply just use those Soultstones and convert them straight to Blood Tokens. With the side effect of you not being able to get that 3rd Blood Counter for effectively free, and slowing down Lilith while she grows other models.

Because her Df may be high, but her Wd count is average. If you use her as the proper tank she is, my experience is as follow:

Out of 8 SS:

*snip*

And nothing changes this. If you don't want to spend the first turn converting Soulstones into Blood Counters, you don't have to, and you can still play Lilith the way you want.

There are crews which do not task her Df, true. Then there are Punk Zombies or Rasputina where letting just one strike through can cost you your master.

And I see no changes to this except to weaken Lilith as she grows her minions (by spending her Soulstones). Is this not a fair trade? I mean you don't have to spend the Soulstones to get Blood Counters and subsequently grow your minions. It gives you options instead of pigeon holing Lilith into specific minion selections in order to be effective.


Pandora has her woes, Zoraida has her... well dolls and play things (low WP stuff) and the Dreamer has his nightmares. Each of these master's specific minions do something special in the way they interact with their master. Lilith's, theoretically was to get blood and grow her Tots and Young, but it appears that people don't want this. Ok, I understand that desire.

Why? What reasoning is there for doing away with grow lists?

[Q'iq'el]

In the book 1 Growth was a side-line Nephilim-only mechanic for which no buffs were provided. The only thing Lilith could do to help it was get some extra Blood Counters and even that either by sacrificing Soulstones or not using Brood Mother (which is extremely useful ability and I tend to use it every turn I can).

So you would start with the crew you want to use (Tots+Youngs, Youngs+ Mature, more rarely Tots and Mature) and if you got lucky with your Control Hand draws, you'd grow one or two thorough the game. No Desperate Mercenaries, no wasting 1st turn on farming Blood Counters or any such silliness - straight forward into combat, as quick as you can.

The original Lilith fluff, first texts that have drawn people to her are in Wyrd Chronicles - her duel with Rasputina especially.

There's no way Lilith can be improved in her Growth department without taking away from her combat abilities. She already is one of the most powerful masters in the game - the excuse for that and the reason she isn't as vilified as some other NB masters is lower level of synergy with her crew.

And the moment proposed changes start with bringing down what actually is her defining feature in this game (high Df), well, it's almost a heresy. It's like a proposition to fix Nicodem starting with toning down Rigor Mortis and making it harder to Reanimate. :D

And all that while there's really nothing needing fix with Lilith. She still does quite well and can take multiple different builds.

---------- Post added at 03:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 PM ----------

And to add this... I don't spend SS on Blood Counters unless the opponent doesn't drop any. I also don't bring Desperate Mercenaries [usually just 1], unless I face Constructs etc.

More often than not those go for BBS rather than for direct Growth. You really don't have to Grow, don't need to Grow and I'd go as far as to say if you go Growth way, you hinder yourself.

You propose buffs to ability, which is a sideline gimmick to begin with, not her defining feature.

[cain]

Lady Justice can improve her chance to hit and also improve her chance to do Severe damage, but her damage spread stays at 4/5/7. It would be nice if it was magical or was as powerful as you think it is. Lady J at 7/8/10 would be awesome........... but not fun for my opponent. Also, Death Marshals do not have any damage buffs besides their own +1 for Critical Strike on my cards. How do they give Lady J +2 damage?

Not quite on topic, but explained.
3-4-6 basic. Critical strike with ram card 5-6-8. DMs have a spell "Finish the job" giving other DMs (as Lady J. is with v2) +1 dam per ram. Casted with ram card, Lady Js. final dam 7-8-10.
You will need 2 ram cards of course. (If you buy an extra card and get a ram, she even able to get +1 dam more).

And the only buff Lilith can get is flurry from the BBS.