Introducing...UK Malifaux Tournament Comp Pack...

[ukrocky]

...don't flame me yet.

I'm nipping out to play toy soldiers, but I thought I'd put it out there now.

I do have a clarification document that aims to explain bits in more detail, but the basic idea of the comp pack is explained in the introduction. But for clarity's sake, here is the introduction from the clarification document too;

Oneof the things I should 100% clarify is that this comp pack isintended for the UK tournament scene and the experience us in the UKhave based on our tournaments, and this comp pack is meant forcompetitive play. That is not to say that one place is betterthan another, just that different places have different 'metas' andstyles of playing.

Itmight well be that elsewhere malifaux doesn't need comping, howeverover here in competitive tournaments, many of us feel it does. I'veplayed tons of games systems, and tournaments in them all, and Idon't think any game system will ever be fully balanced. I don'tthink malifaux needs comp outside of tournaments, however over here,in tournaments, it does at the moment.

In addition, the next gamers lounge is myself chatting with Bill about the comp pack, so hopefully that will ease yet more worries about it.

But for now, here is the document, in full, in draft v1.03;


http://www.mythicfox.com/malifaux/mx3scomp_v1.03.pdfVoila

[Tograth]

having read through this, I have to state a few points:

1) as a player, I am very much opposed to comp in general, and I find that most (if not all) comp scenarios tend to be quite flawed, and tend to be less than equal in their targeting.

2) I feel that the introduction of any sort of tournament comp, even if it's UK only, is a bad precedent.

3) The changes you are suggesting are...oddly focused. why is Lillith being penalised? she's not quite as powerful as kirai or hamelin are regarded. Also, why do nicodem and seamus receive little or no benefit, when ramos and tina do? why is there no change to Som'ers unresisted stuff (all they really need is a resist TBH)?



Having said the above, as an idea, the scenarios you suggest are interesting. stages 1 and 3 I generally do not have a problem with - stage 1 fixes most of the current major perceived problems in the game. Stage 2 is a bit weird, and is oddly focused. Stage 3 - most of these seem to be ok, although I'm leery of such drastic changes.




All told, I have to say that I dont think comp is a good idea at all, regardless of how well intentioned it is. Once a system starts using comp, even if it is limited, it gets very obtuse very fast. Everyone starts thinking that they are entitled to make their own comp, and furthermore, that *their* brand of comp is better than anyone elses. I've never seen a comp system that did more good than harm. *never*, and I did quite an indepth review of various comp systems about 18 months ago for myself and some of the other players in my local meta, for a variety of different systems.

Another thing with comp is that its also unnecessary. Wyrd have repeatedly stated that a lot of the Big Issue models and crews (Hamelin etc, marionettes and collodi,etc) are on the block for changes. A little bit of patience is all thats really needed - wait till after Gencon, when things start to quieten down and the new folks get up to speed, and I can bet that a lot (if not all) of the problems will get sorted out.

[ukrocky]

Thanks for your comments Tograth, I'll try address them as best as possible in order.

So with regards to equal targeting, there were alot of players input into this, ranging from on-off players, to fully fledged tournament players such as Calmdown and Magicpockets. I tried to involve as many people as possible in the construction of the comp pack, to try and equally target as best as possible

I have played many, many wargames, and all to a competitive level. I have played probably more than 10 different systems in competitive environments, including 8 different systems this year alone. I've seen alot of comp packs, and I've never see it do harm to a game, specifically when the comp is optional. The GT won't use comp. My events will.

Lilith is being penalised because over here, as our local meta stands, (and by local meta, I mean UK tournaments), Lilith is winning everything in sight. To off track slightly, I've always bigged up Lilith and felt she was one of the strongest masters in the game, but it's only recently in the UK I'm being proved right. Now that may sound like a personal vendetta, but the choice of her on the list isn't purely my own. It includes the players that have been winning events with Lilith.

And it's a similar story for the other masters. We don't see Tina and we want to encourage variation. And we don't feel Som'er needs a change. We want as few changes as possible, whilst balancing as much as possible.

Stage 2 seems to be the stage the most people have issues with. But as I said in the comp, it's an exceedingly flexible comp pack. Don't agree with Stage 2? Drop it. Don't agree Lilith should be penalised? Drop her into the middle tier. It's a super flexible comp. We don't think it's oddly focused, based on how tournaments in the UK have been going.

To repeat myself, I think comp is a good thing. Hence why I've done it. I know not everyone will agree on comp, but much like rankings (To dig them up) I think it's one of those things that you'll have a 'yes' camp, a 'meh' camp and a 'no' camp, and I don't really know anyone who is still massively against rankings. But to get back on track, the UK tournament scene needs comp for how it is at the moment.

With regards to it becoming obtuse. Well us in the malifaux community in the UK are a pretty close bunch. If comp is becoming obtuse, we'll chat together, as we all see each other often enough. We feel we can keep it in check.

Comp is neccesary for how the game works right now. If wyrd release an errata on Hamelin/Collodi. Great, we'll drop the comp from them and see how their fixes work. But for tournaments that are right now, it needs comp. It's not like Hamelin has only been out a few weeks, he's been out a while. As has Pandora. And we feel they need a few tweaks to bring them in line.

The comp is flexible enough that when the errata comes out, we can chop and change it. But we need the comp for the UK scene as it stands right now, and that's what we hope this document is for.

[Buhallin]

[Tograth]

I appreciate your points, and the fact that it has a wide base of experience to draw from helps to make it more even in some respects.


With regards your comp pack, I don't actually have that many problems with it overall - its a lot less biased than some others that I have seen, both for malifaux and other systems. I also appreciate the need for some sort of balancing mechanism as things currently stand for Hamelin, as it is one of the top two or three issues I see with malifaux currently.

However, what worries me is that comp systems rarely stop once they have begun, even when the initial problems that engendered them are no longer an issue. My fear is that while it may start off small, relatively well balanced and well meaning, it could eventually spiral into something like the absolutely abysmal INATFAQ for 40K.


My feelings for malifaux as a whole is that there are relatively few major issues, with Hamelin, collodi and marionettes and turn 1 objective grabbing, unresisted Gremlin damage and card drain, and to a small extent kirai and colette being the major issues.

The biggest thing with the above problems is that yes, they are problems, and some of them (in particular Hamelin and Som'er) are in need of fixing. Some sort of interim patch to tide players over is a good idea, especially since Wyrd have stated their intention to revisit a lot of the troublesome models and rules interactions. I simply have concerns about any player made patch, and how it may create more problems down the road for the game system as a whole when Wyrd themselves come around to fixing any issues.

[ukrocky]

As said Tograth, us tournament players in the UK player will keep a close eye on it, and if it's not working, we'll pull it. We're a much closer community than I've seen in any other wargame, especially GW ones, and based on that, I think we can pull comp off.

[Gruesome]

Not really sure what I think about comp in Malifaux...

Like:
The list is small.
The idea of stage 3 to promote use of lesser used Models by discounting 1st choice. I may not agree with all those listed(Francisco, Hanged), or think that there are some missing(Drowned, Rafkin), but the idea is cool to me of a discount on 1st taken. Including the avatars was a really good idea too.

Dislike:
Giving Soulstones to masters and NOT giving them to Nicodem and Seamus.
In general, I dislike playing a version of the game that is different than the majority.
The inevitable stream of "why didn't you fix MY favorite master!"

[ukrocky]

Not really sure what I think about comp in Malifaux...

Like:
The list is small.
The idea of stage 3 to promote use of lesser used Models by discounting 1st choice. I may not agree with all those listed(Francisco, Hanged), or think that there are some missing(Drowned, Rafkin), but the idea is cool to me of a discount on 1st taken. Including the avatars was a really good idea too.

Dislike:
Giving Soulstones to masters and NOT giving them to Nicodem and Seamus.
In general, I dislike playing a version of the game that is different than the majority.
The inevitable stream of "why didn't you fix MY favorite master!"

Thanks for the feedback.

Hopefully when the gamers lounge comes out it'll help some of your qualms

Nicodem and Seamus seem to be getting alot of support to go into the pack, but I don't think we feel they need to over here in the UK. It is a possibility though and one I'll make sure to discuss with the other guys involved in the comp pack.

[Gruesome]

Nicodem and Seamus seem to be getting alot of support to go into the pack, but I don't think we feel they need to over here in the UK. It is a possibility though and one I'll make sure to discuss with the other guys involved in the comp pack.

Well, its interesting to me that they are not getting that support for more stones. If they play consistently over there and place well, then of course they would not need adjustment, so I understand.

Not trying to start the "meta" drums banging in this thread (We have the "Joker Thread", I mean, "Constructive Criticism" for that now it seems).
If Seamus and Nicodem place well there, I am honestly interested in understanding whether:
1. In general, we do not play them as well over here.
2. UK players do not know how to murder them as well.

I make no claim on which is true, or to what degree parts of them are true.

[Clousseau]

Don't go with this at all, but then I'm not a competative "must win" tournament player so probably not aimed at me anyway. Would put me off entering a tournament TBH.