Poison Errata

[Boscotopia]

What do you mean by this? Poison counters don't 'stack' really. The errata only cleaned up the wording on the old rule, you increase the number of poison counters to the number indicated, not by the number indicated

Good catch! I read that wrong, thinking the Ressers got some good news. I thought since they had put in errata, that it changed ....... but it stayed the same. So, now three crooligans all hitting for Poison 1 STILL leave only Poison 1 on their victim AND that Poison 1 is not yours to claim. I have yet to see an reason to take any minion with Poison. In the games where it is important who dies and how they die, Poison is a limitation, not an advantage. I know it is not in all cases for most Masters, but poor Molly is stuck with Poison-dealers in all matches until she gets a much larger force. I am hoping Book 4 will bring her 4-6 new options, be they new models or just access to older Resser models. Thast and I think Rafkin is an AWESOME sculpt. I really need a reason to get him and get him on the table.

Thanks for all the responses. As always, you guys are great!

---------- Post added at 08:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 AM ----------

Can someone be lured off a ledge? If they can, and the fall kills them, would the model that cast lure get credit? Or Obeyed to walk off a cliff?

It seems like they just cast the spell and it was the fall that did the killing.

For that matter, If I hit someone with a sword, its the sword doing the cutting... But I digress...

I realize its a fool's errand to apply "real world" logic to game mechanics as there must often be concessions to keep mechanics consistent.

But, I am a fool that likes erranding.

---------- Post added at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------



Grudge is the scheme that requires a melee strike. So it would definitely not get credit for poison.

+1

[mpangelu]

I'm hoping they are errata all the schemes that don't require a how they die (Grudge), but that they just be dead just be changed to not being in play at the end of the encounter. Which would render all issues such as this mute. In essence similar to the change that made Stitched a bit more wtf.

On another note, due to one of the post above, you wouldn't have to keep up with all the poison counters. If someone put it on a model, and it kept getting bumped up, the original model is still the one who poisoned it until all the counters are removed.

Also, while poison is a useful tool for many models in the game, saying that it is their primary damage output is a bit much. And if you are relying on the poison to be the game changer every time, I don't think your utilizing most of the models properly. Not saying that some won't be more impacted then others, but a blatant all poison models are now crap is a bit much imo.

[Gruesome]

And if you are relying on the poison to be the game changer every time, I don't think your utilizing most of the models properly. Not saying that some won't be more impacted then others, but a blatant all poison models are now crap is a bit much imo.

No one said anything of the sort.

But...

Poison is a "powerful" ability that is very likely used in determining the soulstone cost/value of a model and as such, its unfortunate that it has such a detriment.

When I have Grudge as a Rezzer, its unfortunate to me that the Rogue Necromancy, a model I already feel is over-costed in SS(Which is why he is 100% summoned) can be such a liability in trying to kill my target. Worst is my opponent being able to even inflict a wound or two on my target to ensure that his next activation kills him by poison losing me the VP. Heck, its still silly to me that they can just kill their own model outright, poison aside.

I like the suggestion above where the VP simply comes from him being out of play. Perhaps with the caveat that the master can not have touched him in any way. That way, its more like the whole fight was a grudge between minions.
As the rule stands now, Someone like Nicodem could paralyze them the entire game while the minions beat on him until dead and while, yes, it was the minions actually killing him, in reality, Nicodem paralyzing him the entire time is what made it happen. By making the master unable to interact with the target or lose the VP, it makes it definitely more minion vs. minion and more interesting... At least, IMO.

[Iron Heel]

I'm hoping they are errata all the schemes that don't require a how they die (Grudge), but that they just be dead just be changed to not being in play at the end of the encounter.

+1

[Sybaris]

I agree with that too.

It's only logical that killing someone with poison is a valid method of assassination. While game mechanics can't be linked to real-world affairs, it's still the basic reference for the mythology and fantasy that we agree to play in.

Darth Vader to boba-fett: No disintegrations!

Colette to her showgirls: No poison ring, it's too subtle!

[Mike3838]

I'm hoping they are errata all the schemes that don't require a how they die (Grudge), but that they just be dead just be changed to not being in play at the end of the encounter. Which would render all issues such as this mute. In essence similar to the change that made Stitched a bit more wtf.

There are already schemes that work like this, and they work on a difficulty gradient that already takes account of the fact that poison exists and models can be killed by their own crew.

Look:

Grudge: Target can be any minion, even a 2ss one (easy), but must be killed by a melee strike from a minion (difficult)
Kill Protogee: Target must be highest value minion (bit harder), but any of your own models can kill it by any means (bit easier)
Assassinate: Target must be Master (hard), but can be removed by any means at all (easy)

If you take away the second restriction from all of these, why would someone *ever* choose Assassinate or Kill Protoge when they could choose Grudge instead?

Mike

[Gruesome]

If you take away the second restriction from all of these, why would someone *ever* choose Assassinate or Kill Protoge when they could choose Grudge instead?

If you play in an environment where you can take the same schemes every single game of your life, then why wouldn't you take bodyguard every single game, too?

I like your breakdown of the distinctions between Assassinate, Kill Prot. and Grudge. I happen to prefer for grudge the change about master not being able to touch the model rather than making poison a detriment for it.

As a rezzer, I dislike when any of our "benefits" have downsides. Poison, Slow to Die and Hard to Wound are three of our benefits that set us apart on the whole. (Yes, other factions have some of them, but not as much as us)
And two out of those have downsides in some situations.

What is the downside of the traits most prevalent in other factions? Critical Strike? Armor? Black Blood? Frozen Heart? Stubborn? Immune to Influence?

I suppose you could say that a grudged model could possibly kill itself by hitting a black blood model and losing its last wound and Immune to Influence means you cannot Obey your own model... (I'd still take it in a heartbeat)

Its tough to not take grudge in a tournament as you cannot repeat schemes. The melee requirement is difficult. No poison just complicates it some.
I've still done it fine, but also been screwed by it twice that I remember off the top of my head.

I still want poison, though. For me, I just feel like Grudge needs work. Since its minion melee strike, it feels like the intent is something to be resolved between non-masters. That's why I find it appealing to say that only non-master melee strikes can hit it and that the target not being in play at the end of the game is sufficient.
So, no ranged attacks at all. And no master attacks. The grudge has to be carried out face to face. That feels in the spirit of it. Some of us just use poison blades when we do it. (Hey! Some of YOU use critical strikes! which is a little like immediately applied poison, )

Far worse than poison to me would be my opponent being up by a VP or two and on turn 6, he just decides to put a bullet in the head of his own model to deny me the points.
Mechanically it works and I do not get points, but that sure does not "feel" fair.

[Keltheos]

Here's a tactic: poison the model EARLY. The poison softens it up for a killing blow from your weaker models (say Poison 2 reduces the target to 1 wound, then ANY of your attacks would finish the target off, granting you the kill credit).

It's mainly the tracking issue, but at the same time Poison is also not intended to be a time bomb you get to spread liberally around the enemy crew and watch as you rack up VPs from models you attacked once two turns ago...

[mpangelu]

Keeping track of the poison is no different then keeping up with who killed who, and who burried who. There are many mechanics or results in the game that require you to keep up with some things. Keeping up with who initially put a poison counter on a model doesn't seem any more difficult.

Personally I don't see it as a time bomb effect, but instead of softening opponents as you put it, your making it where you as the player might be affraid to utilize what could be a bonus to or as was already stated a factor involved in a models cost, to damage an opponent in the regards that it might mess up your involvement with your schemes.

If it wasn't menat to be used liberally, why do so many models have it? Or ways of getting it (thinking of wicked dolls here, lots of rezzers(molly) and such.).

This also begs the question, how do burning tokens count towards killing purposes?

[Mike3838]

Grudge and (to a lesser extent) Kill Protoge could do with rethinking anyway in my opinion. In competitive play they're terrible, as they usually result in self sacrifice, and often early on. Several crews don't even lose out by doing that as they just resummon a fresh version of the model straight away and are playing with a 2VP opportunity advantage from the offset. Despite them being terrible, you're usually forced to take at least one due to schemes being unique.

Mike