4 Ice Mirror questions from 2 cases

[Buhallin]

Also I guess I never really thought about it because the "arc node" type thing was only a Raspy thing, but now that I am thinking about it......all the masters could do it with their totems so it does open up the possibility that it could create issues later.

It's not an issue with Magical Extension, because in that case the totem is the one who's actually doing the casting. But it's not just Raspy. He's commonly overlooked, but Nicodem and his Vultures can use Eyes and Ears to do exactly what Ice Mirror does, only at unlimited range and The Fog is 6 inches instead of 3. I can't think of any others, but there certainly could be more in the future.

Even with that aside, your simple statement of "wanting to play it right" is a very valid point. There is certainly the tendency among gamers to just "assume" that they are playing it right then when the question comes up we go all 'deer in the headlights'.

So, at this point I "assume" that I'm right but I'll probably stay away from the highway.

I'm a software engineer, so logic flow and corner cases are my bread and butter (literally ) It tends to promote a certain precision in rules application, and a desire to understand why things do what they do, which in turn leads to an even greater desire for precision. It can lead me into trouble from time to time

That said, I can certainly agree that this one is odd. I'll stand by the read that it looks like technically pulses can be mirrored, but auras can't, but that is far more confusing than I'd like.

[dgraz]

True about Nico. Just so unusual to actually see him with the Vultures.

[Turbodog]

I've enjoyed "listening" to you both go back and forth on this. Just for my own clarification, I believe the concensus seems to be:

1) You can Ice Mirror both pulse and aura spells (whether it is Raspy or Silent One that does it).

2) The part b's of my questions are still a little in the air. My poor little witchling stalker doesn't know who to cast dispel on to make white out go away!

[dgraz]

My belief is that you can cast any spell you want through a "mirror" and that if it is an it is centered on the mirror it was cast through and you would cast dispel on that model.

I'm pretty sure I'm right. If nothing else, I believe the intent was for it to work this way. To me it doesn't make sense to be any other way. However, I wouldn't argue with someone about it if they disagreed since I couldn't find any concrete evidence that proves it. Buhallin has been around a long time too and we just have different opinions....but he appears to be more 'the letter of the law' whereas I am a more 'spirit of the law'.

Sorry I can't be more solid, I know when he mentioned something about seeing it (but couldn't find it) it reminded me of something I had seen with the Silent Ones with similar questions (but I couldn't find it either).

[Buhallin]

Your question about the Dispel illustrates my concern perfectly, turbodog. Consider:

- Your question is basically "Where is the effect?"
- The effect HAS to be on the mirror model for the aura to be centered there. There may be exceptions, but as far as I know, effects are on the model they affect. You cannot have the White Out effect on Rasputina for the rest of the turn but the mirror model being the center.
- If the effect is on the mirror model, how did it get there? Nothing about Ice Mirror changes the target.

And the last part is why I'm concerned, especially for Auras but also (at least a little bit) for pulses. I think all pulses and auras have an implicit target of the caster if not otherwise specified. Nothing in Ice Mirror lets you change that target. Measuring range from another model is irrelevant, because that still doesn't reposition the effect.

Another element to consider is that Ice Mirror says "When casting a spell..." Once you're done casting White Out, you're no longer casting a spell, so the condition for Ice Mirror are gone. So even if did put the effect on Raspy but continue to measure it from the mirror, I don't think that would persist throughout all further range measurements for the duration of the spell.

<shrug> Sorry to be the downer on this - I play Raspy too, and she certainly wouldn't suffer to see the little boost. But by the letter of the rules I'm just finding too many question marks.

[Kadeton]

Definitely an odd one. My inclination would be that pulses could be measured from the Mirror, but auras would still originate from Rasputina - essential from the "when casting a spell" wording. You can measure a pulse from the mirror because you measure when you're casting the spell, whereas an aura places a persistent effect on the caster that is only measured when the aura's effect is relevant.

[dgraz]

So I searched 'Ice Mirror' and read through all 13 pages that came up and I couldn't find anything more official than the response from Ropetus that was already cited earlier in the thread....where Ropetus say that you can use the Auras through Mirrors.

What I did find was the conversation about how in V1, Ice Mirror changed the originator of the spell to the Mirror, but that that was changed in V2. So you can center the spell on a Mirror, but the original caster is the one that you would have to cast dispel on.

That was the best I could find. I've always played it the way Ropetus confirmed and I believe that it is the 'spirit of the rule' to work that way. So I'm going to stick to playing it that way. I can't really disagree too strongly with you, Buhallin, since I do see the points you raise and I'm open-minded enough to see that they would be an issue for a 'stickler' as you coined yourself.

However, I can't see that we'll get a response from an RM on this since they're not big on chiming in on something already answered....and since you linked in the actual ruling from Ropetus, I could see that this would fall under 'already answered'.