Avatar Lilith and melee

[Gollum528]

I don't have the card in front of me but her melee range is 2" (I think) and she can attack any model within 2" of a woods terrain she is touching. I have three questions about this.

1. At what point does one do a disengaging strike from her, is it 2" from the forest or 2" from her?

2. When shooting at her (or any model in the forest) do you randomize for every model in the forest or just the one's directly engaged?

3. At what point is a model engaged with her and can no longer used ranged attacks (or other fun stuff like stay up late to Play Malifaux with friends), is it while directly engaged with her or anywhere 2" from the forests??

bonus question: if a waldgeist moves one forest piece into contact with another forest piece, is that now one big forest piece or still two small ones?

thanks in advance guys.

[sephiroa]

i dunno, but i think if she can hit them in melee, they are engaged, and cannot use ranged strikes, i could be wrong tough

[WindlordRyu]

They shouldn't be engaged unless they're actually within 2" of Lilith. As far as I know her rules only changes which models you may target with melee attacks (which basically let's you hit models with melee attacks without engaging or being engaged, or even having them in your melee range). Other than that, she should act exactly the same way as other models.

Terrain has bases. And even if those bases overlap it's still two separate bases. So it's still 2 forests.

[Alex]

i dunno, but i think if she can hit them in melee, they are engaged, and cannot use ranged strikes, i could be wrong tough

This is how I initially believed it to work when I started using Waldgeists; however I have been unable to find support for this idea in the rules. As far as I can tell, I believe WindlordRyu is correct.

[aracknight]

Ok, so I just spent an hour looking through the forums for an answer to the haunted forest question and I've still come up empty... so, looking at the rules on melee strikes on page 39...

"a model's melee range is the Rg of any of the (///) weapons."

then crossing that onto the fact that haunted forest gives the exception of letting the melee strike "target" ... ie. the effect from haunted forest specifically targets the models using your claws strikes.

I'd come to the conclusion that haunted forest is technically the source of the ability to target and not the weapon meaning that as much as I'd love to keep you engaged with haunted forest... it can't. Sad day for us lilith players.

(Also, on a side note I'd like to point out that as much as wyrd tries to keep abilities uniform... haunted forest missed the memo. on Waldgeist it's a 1 inch range and on lilith its 2 inch... and they had a slight typo with calling it a claw strike when the actual weapon is claws... but who cares.)

[Q'iq'el]

bonus question: if a waldgeist moves one forest piece into contact with another forest piece, is that now one big forest piece or still two small ones?

thanks in advance guys.

I believe the three question actually require a ruling.

The above however is simple. Every terrain piece in Malifaux has a base. It can be a physical base which defines it's actual in-game size, or it can be a virtual one (a house will have a virtual base being it's shade - generally equal to its walls, but it extends under balconies and other protruding parts).

Even if two forests touch, they are still on two different bases, so they are two different terrain pieces.

[Buhallin]

Can you elaborate on why you think they need a ruling, Q? Seems pretty clear, honestly:

Disengaging, pg 38: "During its activation, a model may wish to disengage from one or more enemy models by moving out of opposing models' melee ranges"

Melee Basics, pg 39: "Models in range of an enemy's melee Weapon, or with an enemy model within their melee Weapon range, are said to be engaged in melee, or engaged."

Haunted Forest (Waldgeist): "This model's Claw Strikes can target models anywhere within 1" of a woods terrain piece while its base it touching the woods."

Being engaged, in melee, and disengaging are all base solely on melee range. Haunted Forest does nothing to change melee range. Incidentally, I still think this applies to a charge, too - you can't charge a model in a forest, stop 6" away touching that forest, and then make an attack because if you don't end with the target in your melee range, the charge fails. So, I'm curious what you think the unresolved issues here are?

And credit to Windlord Ryu - I just said everything he did, but with more citations

[Q'iq'el]

There are two issues I have with the rules, one regarding the clarity, the other mechanics & perhaps the intent.

1. As far as the clarity goes, the rules for Disengaging strike do not require models to be engaged in melee implicitly. Sure, being in another model's weapon's melee range means you are engaged in melee, so in most cases the both happen at the same time, but the rules for "Disengaging" on the page 38 do not require it.

Instead, they say a Disengaging Strike can be made when another model leaves the "the model's longest melee range".

Note it is not the longest weapon's melee range.

Since Disengaging Strike is still a Strike, and Haunted forests allows to perform Strikes with Claws weapon, the question is, what is aLilith and Waldgeist's "longest melee range"? (does it equal's weapon's melee range, or does the "model's" formula imply any the abilities extending the range of the weapon come in play as well?)

I don't think it is as clear as you make it out, precisely because being engaged in melee with Waldgeist or aLilith is not required on page 38.


2. The mechanics and the intent come in play with Lilith's avatar mostly. Waldgeist is a very simple fighter and the trigger it gets does seem to be a substitute for ability to engage models in melee (i.e. if it can't stop these models from leaving with Disengaging Strikes, it still has Entangle to serve the same purpose).

Lilith on the other hand is build around ability to keep models fighting her and not letting them leave. She protects her own crew by forcing the opponent to fight her. Wicked is her signature ability, as far as melee tactics go. Assuming your interpretation of the rules for Disengaging, she feels like the person designing the Avatar simply forgot about Waldgeist and assumed she is always capable of making Disengaging Strikes within the forest - many of her abilities don't make any sense otherwise.

For example, she trades −2Cb defensive trigger for push 3" defensive trigger. The later clearly is designed to take her deeper into the woods, away from the engagement and out of LoS. But you don't want to do it at all, if it means you cannot make your Wicked Strikes!



To sum up, I feel the rules aren't clear on what is "model's longest melee range" and on whether Haunted Forest's allowing model's to target opponents in and near the woods with melee strikes does extend to Disengaging Strikes (a subtype of Strikes after all).

I also feel the Avatar of Lilith has been designed with the assumption her Wicked still matters when she is hidden within a forest terrain, which wouldn't be the case, if we accept the interpretation denying the Disengaging Strikes.

[Buhallin]

Instead, they say a Disengaging Strike can be made when another model leaves the "the model's longest melee range".

Note it is not the longest weapon's melee range.

Pg 39, Melee Basics: "A model's melee range is the Rg of any of its Weapons."

A model's longest melee range is very well and simply defined, and is in fact the longest weapon's melee range (or, more properly, the weapon with the longest melee range). Models don't have melee range which isn't defined by their weapons.

I'd rather not get into intent, because it's too often (and rather clearly in this case) more about how the players wants it to be played than truly a divination of designer's intent. If Wyrd meant for her to be able to Wicked-strike anyone who left a forest, they'll change it so it works that way.

But just looking at the rules as they stand, I'm having a very hard time seeing anything to support the distinctions you're trying to make.

---------- Post added at 06:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:53 PM ----------

(does it equal's weapon's melee range, or does the "model's" formula imply any the abilities extending the range of the weapon come in play as well?)

Also - this is the other half of the equation. Haunted Forest does not extend the range of the weapon. It allows targets to be selected which are out of melee range (and, incidentally, LOS). This can be contrasted with McMourning's Scalpel Slingin' which does change the range of the weapon.

Haunted Forest changes the rules for target selection so that you ignore range and LOS. That has nothing to do with Disengaging Strikes at all.

[Q'iq'el]

It has to do with Disengaging Strikes in that they are still a subtype of Strikes and as such the wording for Haunted Forest may affect them.

I stand corrected on model's melee range.

I still think Lilith's Avatar rules make her working against the basic mechanics of her own crew in the current RAW interpretation (unless the purpose is to drop Nephilim and use some Waldgeist/Tuco/Twins list with the avatar) I want to see if there are any chnages on her card, but if not, then a ruling explaining the intent would be very highly appreciated.