Hamelin - is he really that hamy?

[Omenbringer]

I can see how having a limited model is frustrating for some players, but is it actually any more frustrating than seeing your crew whittled down to fewer and fewer models with no more chance of achieving anything?

A decent Hamelin list will do both of these rather well and leave you with nothing to really counter it.

From my position as a new Malifaux player (with some experience of other games) it seems that the biggest problem in the standard crew is the ability to chain multiple activations of rats together. Voracious Rats seems both thematic in itself and somewhat necessary given how weak the rats are, it's the ability to game the system and get multiple uses (three or four rather than just two, which seems like the original intent) out of one set that seems to cause problems.

Out of curiosity, what other models does Hamelin work with beyond the rats, rat catchers, stolen and nix, that are particularly problematic?

Terror Tots, Hamelin and a single rat can turn the little buggers into Young and Mature Nephlim at a surprising rate (Better than either Lilith or Nekima). As an extreme example (read as "for the sake of showing potential under ideal circumstances" not reality) take the list below with 8 Terror Tots;

Outcasts Crew - 30 - Scrap

Hamelin the Plagued -- 4 Pool

• Malifaux Rat [2ss]
• Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]
• Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]
• Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]
• Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]
• Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]
• Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]
• Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]
• Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]

In the first turn of the game, Hamelin and the Rat could potentially (with the right cards) turn this into;

Outcasts Crew - 30 - Scrap

Hamelin the Plagued -- 4 Pool

• Malifaux Rat [2ss]
• Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]
• Terror Tot Nephilim [3ss]
• Young Nephilim [6ss]
• Young Nephilim [6ss]
• Young Nephilim [6ss]
• Young Nephilim [6ss]
• Young Nephilim [6ss]
• Young Nephilim [6ss]

Or the equivalent of 18 SS worth of free models (and each would have a Blood Counter on it).

Turn 2 he can turn that into;

Outcasts Crew - 30 - Scrap

Hamelin the Plagued -- 4 Pool

• Malifaux Rat [2ss]
• Young Nephilim [6ss]
• Young Nephilim [6ss]
• Young Nephilim [6ss]
• Young Nephilim [6ss]
• Young Nephilim [6ss]
• Young Nephilim [6ss]
• Mature Nephilim [10ss]
• Mature Nephilim [10ss]

Or another 14 Points of free models. And every time you kill a mature nephlim there is a Young Nephlim waiting to Mature and replace it (on a 9+ of any suit).

This is an extreme example and would definately be card and luck intensive (the Terror Tots need a 9+ to pull off Grow, requiring all 5 high & the Red Joker) but show cases the potential.

Realistically the growth would be much slower than this, however there is an 11% chance of hitting a card (with cheating) that will allow you to succesfully cast Grow, increasing to 38% of successfully casting Mature with a Young Nephlim.

The worst part of this is that it takes no effort from Hamelin other than the Rat being within 6" of him.

[Q'iq'el]

This is an extreme example and would definately be card and luck intensive (the Terror Tots need a 9+ to pull off Grow, requiring all 5 high & the Red Joker) but show cases the potential.

Realistically the growth would be much slower than this, however there is an 11% chance of hitting a card (with cheating) that will allow you to succesfully cast Grow, increasing to 38% of successfully casting Mature with a Young Nephlim.

The worst part of this is that it takes no effort from Hamelin other than the Rat being within 6" of him.

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. "A potential" for realisation of which there is almost no chance whatsoever is not a potential, but a spin. Consider, you have only 6 (9+ and the Red Joker) that would allow for growth and you simply have no chance to pull it out. At least not in the first turn.

Even if you could, you spend your entire hand and 6AP on something which does nothing to further your objectives (unless it's Slaughter). Terror Tots are better objective grabbers than Young Nephilim, so why would you do that in the first place?

Finally, I'm sure more "classic" Hamelin builds offer more synergy and are quite more powerful than this gimmick, so I think quoting it is somewhat disingenuous. Sounds a bit an attempt to awe the forums with Hamelin's alleged synergies, while lightly dismissing the fact the plan is simply unworkable in an actual game.


And as a more general comment to some arguments in this thread:

While the design goals and intentions may change, we've always been told you are supposed to choose the right master for the Strategy - yours and the opponent's. This and the faction are the only things you know when you choose your master, but that gives you an informed guess. Indeed, because of this faction vs. faction balance it is quite fair to say you are never supposed to field Collodi or Gremlins against Outcasts. There are other such obvious situations in other factions as well, depending on the Strategies both sides have to complete. Bring your master B or C.

It's been said before, but Hiring process in Malifaux is not something you do at home or on the Forums. It is integral part of the game you play and a strategically the step even more important than Deployment. It is very easy to say the players would have more chances against the Dreamer or Hamelin if they knew beforehand they are going to face these crews... but what chances would Marcus, Nicodem or Rasputina have if the opponent Hired a crew entirely optimized to for dealing with Beasts, master assassination or whatever counters Tina?

Right now you have to consider Strategy, possibility of facing something very powerful, and possibility of facing something off the charts. There are no all-comers crews, but you need to bring the tools for several possibilities at once. This is how the game works. Anything which allows you to optimize your crew against one specific master will throw the game off. This is why I'm strongly against such changes.

And if you play in your local club with limited choice of masters, so that you always know what you will be playing against... well, perhaps this is the reason why you think the game is unbalanced or has OP masters in it? Perhaps you are allowing your opponents to optimize their crews in a way they shouldn't be able to. Get a second master of the same faction, build entirely different play style crew around it and surprise them every once in a while. They'll have to modify their list to deal with this uncertainty and the things will get better for both of you.

[schristofersen]

lets not forget that Hamelin is going to snatch that 9+ off the top of the discard pile every chance he gets when you cheat against him due to "the void".

[Q'iq'el]

lets not forget that Hamelin is going to snatch that 9+ off the top of the discard pile every chance he gets when you cheat against him due to "the void".

In turn 1?!? All 6 high ?!? Seriously...

[Omenbringer]

I included that list meerly as an example of potential (I certainly wouldn't count on it doing all that the first 2 turns but over the course of a game it is real likely to pump out one or two Mature Nephlim).

Terror Tots are great objective grabbers but somewhat frail and few things compare to the Mature Nephlim in terms of staying power, destructive power and objective grabbing (especially at a reduced SS cost).

[Q'iq'el]

Oh, I understand the intention is sincere. I'm simply pointing out extreme examples is where the theory gaming gets disingenuous.

You can't call such a build possibility, if there is virtually no chance to pull it off (and I'll remind you the original claim the list will grow 18SS worth in the first turn and do it better than Nekima, who isn't even limited by the suit and high value requirements! These were simply false claims). It's the reason for my qualm with Nico/Canine Remains lists or Nemima's Growth lists. Even though your chances of pulling it off with these lists is very significantly higher, it is still somewhat disingenuous to tell a new player these are working lists. At least they have a gambling potential. Hamelin with Tots has virtually none.

As for the minutae of Nephilim survivability, I'll just say there's a reason Matures live in Defensive Stance. But it is an OT and it depends on the circumstances anyway.

[schristofersen]

In turn 1?!? All 6 high ?!? Seriously...

no no... I should have pointed out that in the course of a game that is going to happen. As has been pointed out in this thread this particular list isn't as likely to be as viable as including some other models, but the point is that the terror tots are an example of that particular mechanic not just being a problem due to rats reactivating. You can grow tots to mature more easily than it seems despite there only being 6 cards in the deck that allow it. You can frequently grab that card and use it repeatedly is my point.

[Trevelyan]

And if you play in your local club with limited choice of masters, so that you always know what you will be playing against... well, perhaps this is the reason why you think the game is unbalanced or has OP masters in it? Perhaps you are allowing your opponents to optimize their crews in a way they shouldn't be able to. Get a second master of the same faction, build entirely different play style crew around it and surprise them every once in a while. They'll have to modify their list to deal with this uncertainty and the things will get better for both of you.

This seems important.

If some people are only ever playing with the same master against Hamelin in situations where Hamelin has the advantage and the master in question lacks the tools (or the player lacks the models) to try something different/effective, then I can see people getting upset with Hamelin.

But is that the case? Does Hamelin have any significant weaknesses? Are there particular masters and Strategies which Hamelin struggles to cope with - the PullMyFinger Wiki suggests a few, but what are people's experiences here? Does anyone have a track record of defeating Hamelin with a marticular Master/crew, or are there any Hamelin players who can point to weaknesses in his typical strategies and crews?

[Omenbringer]

and I'll remind you the original claim the list will grow 18SS worth in the first turn and do it better than Nekima, who isn't even limited by the suit and high value requirements! These were simply false claims). It's the reason for my qualm with Nico/Canine Remains lists or Nemima's Growth lists. Even though your chances of pulling it off with these lists is very significantly higher, it is still somewhat disingenuous to tell a new player these are working lists. At least they have a gambling potential. Hamelin with Tots has virtually none.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one I think.

A few reasons for this;

1. Nekima's cost is pretty prohibitive in a grow list
2. Without Access to the self-replenishing Malifaux Rat, she is limited by Blood Counters. Having to rely on other living/undead models providing them or her taking 4 Wd's from Blood Offering for one

Though I cant argue she makes it a lot easier to cast the Grow or Mature spells because of her Nurture Nephilim ability and her 0 action Nephilim Heart, Hamelin isn't without his tricks. The Void and Abandoned Soul go along way to over coming fate (especially when used on a "free" the Stolen which also provides another Rat, in addition to the 2 Control Cards and healing of 2 Wds). Reduce that Cache or hire one less Terror Tot and add in an Obedient Wretch for another Control Card a turn (3 if you sac her for abandoned soul after she uses Blind Dedication).

Granted this is all theory and in an actual game will definately provide very different results (Some'r and the Gremlin Taxidermist have taught me that).

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------

This seems important.

Definately aggree that Q'iq'el's post is an important part of the discussion. It has been said many times however by Wyrd staff that the game should not be "rock-papper-scissors".

But is that the case? Does Hamelin have any significant weaknesses? Are there particular masters and Strategies which Hamelin struggles to cope with - the PullMyFinger Wiki suggests a few, but what are people's experiences here? Does anyone have a track record of defeating Hamelin with a marticular Master/crew, or are there any Hamelin players who can point to weaknesses in his typical strategies and crews?

He doesn't have a lot of weaknesses and the ones that are listed on Pull My Finger as difficult matchups are far from cake walks (change of tactics will usually still provide the win).

I haven't heard of very many people (perhaps they are keeping their secrets) that have a consistent proven track record against Hamelin. As for solid useable information for consistently beating Hamelin, I'll differ to Magicpockets.

[Q'iq'el]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one I think.

A few reasons for this;

1. Nekima's cost is pretty prohibitive in a grow list
2. Without Access to the self-replenishing Malifaux Rat, she is limited by Blood Counters. Having to rely on other living/undead models providing them or her taking 4 Wd's from Blood Offering for one

From the Realfaux(tm) (as opposed to Theoryfaux) perspective, getting Blood Counters has never been a limiting factor. Lilith crew always has more Blood Counters than it can use.

Since Book 2 you can fit 5 Terror Tots, 2 Dms and Nekima in 35 SS list. You'll be low on Soulstones, but you can guarantee 5 Blood Counters in turn 1 and that gives you 2 Young and 1 Mature or 5 Young which is even better with Nekima (since she gives them auto-flay). With her help you can actually hope to get all that reliably. What is problematic is sacrifice of 1st turn to get dubious advantage.

For a list without Nakima lack of cards is always the limiting factor. It is hard to grow 2 Tots all the way to Mature during a single game. You're almost better of starting with Young, if you want to do it. Even with card Tricks, getting all the high Masks Exactly when needed is problematic.

The bottom line is this: being able to build exotic lists, growing by 15+SS etc. is hardly broken or problematic. These tricks throw off beginners, while being too unreliable. Committing to them loses games (because of the amount of resources you waste, while your opponent completes objectives). Such is Realfaux and IMHO it has to be kept in mind.