Hamelin - is he really that hamy?

[Ozz]

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread...hlight=Hamelin

That would be the most recent one I've seen with suggestions in, and good debated afterwards

[Omenbringer]

That threads is good however there is an older thread that contains a lot more recomendations as well (Debated pretty hard between Magicpockets, Sandwhich and myself). I'll see if I can find the link.

[Ozz]

That's the only one ive read all of, don't tend to look at Hamelin threads to hard as i just plan don't like him.

---------- Post added at 09:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

But there is ofc likely to be plenty of others, thats just the one i know of

[TimeLapse]

I was thinking about this, and as a Hamelin player what if Bully was not on his card anymore, it doesn’t make ham man useless but it changes his play style from one of setting up his defense shield to him actually working with blight counters. Also would make him not auto immune to gremlin lists.

Though without his bully ability he just becomes a watered down Leviticus. Its weird how many player hate Hamelin but are just fine with Leviticus, where Hamelin makes you insignificant levy just kills you with spells that do direct wounds the ignore armor or any other defenses you may have. Where Hamelin can hit you hard for 9 damage Levy hits you with his 12 damage and uses a trigger to get it off instead of using a zero action.

Where Hamelin sacrifices a stolen and gets -4CA to come back from death where levy sacrifices a hollow waif and then the waif comes back for free the next turn. The stolen have a health of 1 where the waifs are harder to kill have a huge WP.

Card drawing, Hamelin’s card drawing is controlled by his opponent, levy kills himself each trun and gets a new hand along with his own card drawing skills and rusty aylce.

So it is less Hamelin and more his support models I think that make him a threat though levy has a larger pool to choose from and may make more diverse list.

---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:52 PM ----------

Also Hamelin does have another big power he is the only master the can prevent your opponets models from counting towards Victory points, If you replaced understanding the souless and bully away and replaced them with blight focused skills that would make him more fluffy and intresting to play.

[Omenbringer]

Its weird how many player hate Hamelin but are just fine with Leviticus, where Hamelin makes you insignificant levy just kills you with spells that do direct wounds the ignore armor or any other defenses you may have. Where Hamelin can hit you hard for 9 damage Levy hits you with his 12 damage and uses a trigger to get it off instead of using a zero action.

Leviticus also has to keep his survival mechanisms (the Hollow Waifs) relatively close to him and they dont do much with or without him on the board. The Stolen provide Hamelin much more survivability (since he can hide them anywhere on the table and still work) and a pretty nice beneift to the rest of the crew whether or not Hamelin in on the table. Leviticus has to have a Corpse counter and cast a spell in order to bring out the second Waif where as Hamelin just says hey its there (and Leviticus is limited to only the 2 Hollow Waifs, where as Hamelin can pump oout 1 per turn increasing his survivability with each and every one)). Pretty much all of what Leviticus does will make him easier to kill (and no he doesn't want to die every turn, especially if he is not ready for it). And of course Leviticus doesn't have near the synergy with his crews as Hamelin does (Vanilla or Grow lists being the most glaring examples).

[Fetid Strumpet]

And, as I was discussing in the thread with Magic Pockets, from my perspective things which just kill you, as long as they aren't regarded as overpowered, are far easier for a player to accept than things which don't kill but make you feel useless.

Coming into the game there is a certain expectation that your models will kill and be killed in return. I don't think anyone who plays Malifaux, or any miniatures war game really, would ever expect to come into the game and never lose a model. What no one likes is to have a model that they can't control, and that doesn't get to do anything effective. I'd have to say this is one of the reasons Hamelin is as hated as he is. I don't personally know how hard he is to defeat as I've played him very little, but from what it seems like Hamelin makes your melee monsters Insignificant, which prevents them from doing anything to Hamelin, and killing almost anything else in the crew feels Futile. Kill a Rat, look another. Kill a Ratcatcher, if you can, look another. Kill a Stolen, look another. Attempt to kill Nix, look he just healed. That feeling of nothing you do matters is, in my opinion, worse for most players than if Hamelin's mechanic's just killed the models, especially as abilities that just kill are somewhat easier to balance than abilities which offer control.

I remember when Magic first came out and the mono blue decks were being constructed. Now true they did have some of the best cards in the game over the other colors, and certainly they weren't unbeatable, but I remember how much people, even people who beat them, hated playing against them because it always felt like nothing you did mattered. You cast a spell, look it's countered. You bring out a big creature, look it's mine now, oh and I now have another via doppleganger. I think this is the case with Hamelin. Irrespective of his balance, which I can't comment on, this seems to be the issue.

[SpiralngCadavr]

I agree completely- rules which limit players upset them.

For instance, you can have two abilities, one which lowers an enemy stat, the other which raises the corresponding friendly stat (for instance, defense and accuracy, respectively). Even if the spells were effectively identical in application, I would bet money that people would be more annoyed with the one that lowers, rather than the one that raises.

[Omenbringer]

I agree with both of the sentiments above, you dont play Malifaux against Hamelin you play against Hamelin (hoping to some how eek out a victory).

[Trevelyan]

I had a read through that previous thread, stopped and thought about it, decided that I must have misinterpreted what people were saying, went back to re-read it and came away no less confused than the first time. As regards Bully, is there genuinely an argument that having a model on the table which can't target Hamelin or achieve objectives but can otherwise contribute to the game (by targetting other models and providing more activations, for example) is more frustrating than simply removing the model entirely? I can see how having a limited model is frustrating for some players, but is it actually any more frustrating than seeing your crew whittled down to fewer and fewer models with no more chance of achieving anything?

EDIT: I was just chatting to a few guys about this, and one of them started fuming at the mere suggestion of a master who could render targets insignificant, making an immediate leap to the M:tG blue deck analogy. The other guy didn't seem to care in the slightest and thought it would make for an interesting challenge in play. Clearly there are some large differences in perspective involved, but is that grounds for change in itself?

If the other problem with Bully is the application to short crews, what would be the objection to having it work only against insignificant models (i.e. remove the Ht 1 part)?

From my position as a new Malifaux player (with some experience of other games) it seems that the biggest problem in the standard crew is the ability to chain multiple activations of rats together. Voracious Rats seems both thematic in itself and somewhat necessary given how weak the rats are, it's the ability to game the system and get multiple uses (three or four rather than just two, which seems like the original intent) out of one set that seems to cause problems.

Out of curiosity, what other models does Hamelin work with beyond the rats, rat catchers, stolen and nix, that are particularly problematic?

[Adanedhel]

Terror tots that kill Rats (that come back anyway) for Blood Counters, Night Terrorsas objective grabbers, and I can't shake off the feeling that Sorrows have some abusably tricks when they get significant