Arise and Carried Counters

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

@q you point 1) makes no sense, it is like saying my cane is not the caster's therefore i should get bolster undead. Or the counters exist in a hyper-reality bubble just outside the caster's base but not really in play. Pulse doesn't work on other carrying counters so why should it work on Nico's? RAW is CLEAR. The RAW page 18&20 counters are physically on model therefore part of base, pulse starts from base but does not effect model that generates it, pretty clear. INTENT is in question.

I can see it going both ways, it always seemed like Nico should have a choice. Prior to Rafkin I would vote it should, but as Mach pointed out that would carry so big consequences.

[Q'iq'el]

Pulse doesn't work on other carried Counters not because it is a Pulse and not because they are not in play (the rule for Counters as far as I remember don't say that), but because rules for Counters specifically say the other models cannot use or discard Counters carried by the model, unless explicitly allowed to.

It has nothing to do with the Counters whereabouts, it is a simple prohibition to use these Counters.

On the other side of this is the explicit and specific permission to use and discard Counters a model carries for the purpose of Talents and Spells that model may choose to do. Is Arise an Action? Yes it is. Therefore there is specific permission to use the Counters for the purpose of that Action on the page 18 (IIRC the exact words is that models "May use or discard" counters they carry or on the table.).

Now the last hurdle to clear up is the fact that the Pulse doesn't affect the caster. The fact that the Pulse doesn't affect the caster doesn't make him "out of range" of the Pulse. The rule for a Pulse simply says he is not affected. He is still in range. The Counters are on him, still in range. The Counters on other models within the Pulse are in range as well, just cannot be used due to Counters' rules.

The Counters are not the caster, but rather something he carries, so the rules for the Pulse do not affect them. Furthermore Counters he carries are something he can specifically use or discard for the purpose of the Actions and Spells he uses, due to how Counters rules are worded.

Even if Pulse was really a donut and the caster was out of its range, he would still be able to use these counters, because that is what the rules for the Counters explicitly allow.


TLDR: If you combine rules for Counters, for Pulse and for Arise, RAW, you can use any Counters carried (always) and any in range of the Pulse. The Pulse adds to the Counters Nicodem already carries, not limits what he can use. The ones he Carries are used by default.

---------- Post added 04-17-2012 at 12:10 AM ---------- Previous post was 04-16-2012 at 11:49 PM ----------

I'm not sure why I cannot edit my post, so small mistakes may get uncorrected.

I'd also like to point out it is not at all like saying the cane is not the caster so it should be affected by Bolster. The cane is specificly a Caster's weapon and part of his stat cart. It *is* the caster for the game's purpose. The Counters are separate game object. They can be Carried, you don't add them to the Character's cart - merely place so that it is obvious who carries them.

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 AM ----------

I also think people are too hang up on the wording stating the Pulse originates at the base's edge of the caster. If that alone meant he is out of range, there would be no need to explicitly state he is not affected. Instead he is in range (the origin point is called the "affected base edge" after all and the edge would still be touching the Pulse if it originates from the edge), but there is explicit exception making the originator not affected by the Pulse. Not the same thing as being out of range.

This is all moot though, because rules for the Counters say he may use/discard Counters he carries for his spells period.

[SoulG]

RAW is clear. Pulses only affect models, and counters are not models. Arise doesn't work on -any- corpse counters, anywhere. This is why this is a matter of intent.

That aside. Remember that pulses are not a matter of location, they are a matter of identity. For instance, Nicodem is capable of standing exactly on top of the counter (so it is completely covered) without picking it up. Even the "no carried counters" theorists do not negate the fact that those counters would be affected by arise.

The issue is identity. Pulses do not affect the "originator."

On the other side of this is the explicit and specific permission to use and discard Counters a model carries for the purpose of Talents and Spells that model may choose to do. Is Arise an Action? Yes it is. Therefore there is specific permission to use the Counters for the purpose of that Action on the page 18 (IIRC the exact words is that models "May use or discard" counters they carry or on the table.).

This is basically the strongest pro-carried-counters argument. Counters have two qualifications that let them be used, "I am being carried by the model" -OR- "I am within range of the action or spell." Not being in the latter category does not also negate the former.

Also, perhaps even more than that. I know people that have played in tournaments since Malifaux's inception. Before it cropped up on the forums no one at official events ever ruled it this way. >_>

I think that speaks more to "intent" than any wording in any book (which, again, RAW, the abilities doesn't function -at all-).

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

It only affects the counters on the table.Not carried counters.

You aren't popping Mindless Zombies out of people's pockets.

[Hatchethead]

You aren't popping Mindless Zombies out of people's pockets.

People are carrying entire corpses around in their pockets? I call shenanigans!

[Guy in Suit]

I'm guessing that those pockets must be magic.

[dgraz]

I'm guessing that those pockets must be magic.

Don't get him started.....corpse counters will be broken!!

[Mach_5]

It only affects the counters on the table.Not carried counters.

You aren't popping Mindless Zombies out of people's pockets.

Just to be sure, it does not affect corpse counters carried by Nicodem himself? No one is suggesting it works on counters carried by other models. Also, Nicodem can reanimate a rogue necromancy out of his pocket... Why not a few zombies? ;)

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Just to be sure, it does not affect corpse counters carried by Nicodem himself? No one is suggesting it works on counters carried by other models. Also, Nicodem can reanimate a rogue necromancy out of his pocket... Why not a few zombies? ;)

It only affects the counters on the table. Not carried counters.

You aren't popping Mindless Zombies out of people's pockets.

To repeat, no carried counters.

[Q'iq'el]

To repeat, no carried counters.

Yet another reason to use Vultures rather than these silly dogs Nicodem has no liking for whatsoever.

While we have your attention WEiRD sKeTCH, why no Feline Remains?!? Why?!*



*Please treat it as a suggestion for the next Gencon or another alternate model.