Malifaux Masters: A Tier List

[Q'iq'el]

I agree some streamlining is good but you have to be careful. To much of it and models start to lose there uniqueness. Malifaux thrives because every model tells its own unique story.

And yet this is what makes the game both hard to balance and less and less accessible to new players at the same time.

The uniqueness of every master and almost every minion was great in Book 1, tested by Book 2 and pushed overboard in Book 3 IMO. Even though Book 3 doesn't introduce all that many new minions it often redefines the old synergies and changes how the lists from Book 1 or Book 2 work... making it necessary for new players to consider all 3 books to be able to learn the game (even if you don't have to buy minions from all the three book, you still need to understand them to oppose them).

I realize one cannot just press gang the minions into warhammer units and preserve Malifaux' uniqueness and atmosphere, but there is a need to make the rules much more accessible. Both by unifying similar rules under the same name and finding a way to publish all the rules for all the models in one easy to access place (book, smartphone app, e-book...)

And I think the pace at which models are released is too high for the game's own good. We've seen 2~3 Book 1 minions a month and similar release pace for Book 2... now we have 5~6 boxes a month and before we even learn how to play them properly, it's going to be Book 4. Too fast for a miniature game.

[Rathnard]

Playtesting is more difficult than it appears (especially against a timeline).

+1 Omenbringer. I couldn't agree more.

It's not really fair on the beta testers to blame them for not spotting certain combos that become evident later on. Take Bury for example - despite being a Book 1 minion, the potential abuse with Bete Noire and Bury (and Nurse!) wasn't really considered until recently. That's a good 2 years of public scrutiny before it starts becoming widely known.

[Requirement]

**to clarify, apparently <<some absurd number>> is actually 5200. Get to playing Minions!!!

I feel like this is what we should all actually just be talking about. Someone set up a system where we can all input our games and actually get this done, together, happily in unison.

[Wulfen]

+1 Omenbringer. I couldn't agree more.

It's not really fair on the beta testers to blame them for not spotting certain combos that become evident later on. Take Bury for example - despite being a Book 1 minion, the potential abuse with Bete Noire and Bury (and Nurse!) wasn't really considered until recently. That's a good 2 years of public scrutiny before it starts becoming widely known.

It's absolutely fair, as this is exactly what testers should be doing, trying to break things, not 'oooh aaaahing' at the cool new stuff. Certainly testers don't share all the blame, I think part of this is due to Wyrd still being new to game design, in large part, when you compare them to other companies. I think maybe they're still working the kinks out on how to have an effective test that can find the majority of this before things like the Dreamer and his minions come out.

[nix]

Anyone who is interested in welcome to grab a copy of my spreadsheet. Its what I use to track hobby progress along with my games.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nJKcmtvNXp1bGc

---------- Post added at 11:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 PM ----------

It's absolutely fair, as this is exactly what testers should be doing, trying to break things, not 'oooh aaaahing' at the cool new stuff. Certainly testers don't share all the blame, I think part of this is due to Wyrd still being new to game design, in large part, when you compare them to other companies. I think maybe they're still working the kinks out on how to have an effective test that can find the majority of this before things like the Dreamer and his minions come out.

I believe you far underestimate the work that goes into development and testing of this game.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I've been involved in play testing before and I very much agree that it is very difficult to catch everything. Especially with a game as complex as Malifaux. If it sounded like I was blaming them it was not the case. However we now have had, as has been said, two years of a wider community playing the models and some tightening up could be beneficial at some point.

I agree with Q on tightening some of the wordings, for example, Rotten Belles have Shambling as an ability, which I believe basically does exactly the same thing as scout, I feel this is one example of tightening that could be explored. Similarly there are multiple versions of Headshot which has basically the same mechanics as Decapitate, Slit Jugular, and Disembowel, some of which do dmg as well as the death effect, and some that don't. Personally I feel they should all be cleaned up mechanically into one ability. Getting Key words down to a CCG level where they always appear the same way for game effects would also be a beneficial step. Lastly a look at book 1 Masters I feel needs to be addressed. I can accept that there are always going to be the most powerful and least powerful options in a game, no game system other than one based only on equal luck on both sides is going to be perfectly balanced, however the level of that balance can very wildly along those options and currently I feel we have a situation where that level is in some cases too spaced out. I personally would like to see a little boosting of the individual Masters themselves, but I could definitely go with introducing new minions which offered better synergies and increased the effectiveness of the masters without change. For example if The Dreamer didn't have access to daydreams he would still be playable, I think he would still do very well at many things and still be a competitive master, however it is the interaction with the Daydreams, among other things, which really kicks things up a notch or two. Should other minions be introduced which improved the weaker book 1 masters to the same degree I'd have no complaints.

[ravenborne]

Anyone who is interested in welcome to grab a copy of my spreadsheet. Its what I use to track hobby progress along with my games.

Crap, if you're keeping records I am going to have to try harder!

[Q'iq'el]

@Fetid Strumpet - this is exactly what I'm speaking about.


And I also think you guys under appreciate the abilities of Beta testers. I remember distinctly that chain Double Take, Bête Noire+Bury and other such tricks have been extensively discussed shortly after the models become available and in each and every case these were deemed balanced and acceptable.

What I'm trying to say is that even if Beta testers find a very complex synergy and win games with it, it still won't be obvious if such a move really breaks things or is a trick people quickly develop a counter for. But a simpler rules system with results easier to predict and models a bit more uniform in mechanics they use, now that allows both for better predictions and for quicker fixes.

[Omenbringer]

It's absolutely fair, as this is exactly what testers should be doing, trying to break things, not 'oooh aaaahing' at the cool new stuff. Certainly testers don't share all the blame, I think part of this is due to Wyrd still being new to game design, in large part, when you compare them to other companies. I think maybe they're still working the kinks out on how to have an effective test that can find the majority of this before things like the Dreamer and his minions come out.

As a forumite that has openly admitted to being a playtester I can say that the playtests did have the "ooohs and aaaahs" guys, however the majority of us diligently worked to break things with the lofty goal of relative balance. I tend to think we did a pretty good job given the shear amount of unique model/ rules interactions in this game and the time lines.

In regards to Wyrd being new to the game (and at the risk of sounding like a "fan boy"), several other companies (with much, much more experience) still release products that suffer from these exact problems. It is very difficult to gauge what subtle interactions will develop into the next "broken combo" (additionally, playtesters have the benefit/ curse of direct interactions with the developers and the intent of models/ abilities which aids comprehension but can hinder subtle abuses. In other words knowing how something is supposed to work makes it more difficult to catch laguage that doesnt convey the same.).

However we now have had, as has been said, two years of a wider community playing the models and some tightening up could be beneficial at some point.

How long did it take Privateer Press to update their ruleset to Mk II (or even prior to that Prime:Remix) or Games Workshop to update codices/ rule sets? Though I definately agree that there are things that need retooling/ rebalancing I also except that time is an unfortunate requirement.

---------- Post added at 01:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 AM ----------

But a simpler rules system with results easier to predict and models a bit more uniform in mechanics they use, now that allows both for better predictions and for quicker fixes.

If history is any example then both of these are inevitable.

[Justin]

I will say this about playtest:

You guys have no idea what ISN'T in there now and was in playtest.