Is broken now broken?

[fishtank]

My entire experience of Hamlin comes rom listening to you on GL.

What I understood was that you built a list that exploited the rules to reduce a game to - near enough -Solitaire. That to me - while fair enough in the environment you were playing - is broken.
Again, comes down to definitions...but effectively being able to turn to your opponent and say "You cannot win." (and if I've misinterpreted what you said, mea culpa. That's how it sounded though.)...then something is wrong.

(more so if the schemes involved are Bodyguard and the one about collecting Soulstones...)

[nilus]

What a perfect example of the BS "broken" statements people make - this is not broken at all. Sure you get a powerful master sat on 20ss+ but that's balanced by the fact the player now only has 3AP with which to use them each turn and a single model (assuming you sac everyone) to achieve all schemes and your strategies.

And honestly I think the problem here is not with Hamelin but with the Slaughter Strategy itself.

Its the reason I have basically stopped using Slaughter in any of my events.

[fishtank]

Stoopid telephone make me make double post.
Stoopid telephone not let me edit double post.

[Spiku]

Most of my shared slaughter games see 1 model die, or both players chilling out in their deployment zone/moving around until turn 6 then trying to cap one kill and get their schemes.

[Omenbringer]

And it's something that p*sses me off as well. I'm a very good player (if anyone wants to start another "You're so cocky to say that" attack like last time, go get a life) but so many times I hear that it's only because I play broken crews -

I start with Zoraida - people play me, lose badly and tell me she's broken.
I move to Pandora - people play me, lose badly and tell me she's broken.
I move to Hamelin - people play me, lose badly and tell me he's broken.
I move to Levi - people play me, lose badly and tell me he's broken.
I then move to SOMER FFS! - and now the consensus seems to be that he's broken!

Sure there's a lot of strong Masters in there but to me broken is something a complete n00b can pick up and effortlessly win with - not a crew that has taken months of thinking and practice to work out the interactions and actually get good with. (Disclaimer - I still think bury and Hamelin's crew mechanics are the two closest things to "broken" in the game)

You are right several of the Masters you listed are very tough to face (unless you build to counter them or play to them first before your strategies), however the only one that is listed that I consider in need of major repair is Hamelin (for exactly the reason you listed).

We had a league that showed pretty well exactly what you are talking about, a completely new player (not just to Malifaux but mini-gaming in general) completely walked the league with a very vanilla Hamelin list. Though the consensus from the forums was that the rest of our community just needed to learn to play, I would argue that they do and a lot put in the work to figure him out as soon as they knew he was going to be played. Even coaching a few of the players (I was playing in the league not running it) could not produce the win. For me this screams problem, he may be beatable (but far from consistently, easily or with normal lists).

To the Bury mechanics I would also add the Drain Souls action which really should be limited to once per game vice as long as you have minions to sac.

By the way several of us have been shouting Some'rs praises for years, granted not the "he is broken" non-sense but definately his praises (with that said there are somethings with him specifically, a few of the gremlin models at large, and the rules in general that need to be fixed to get him back to where he was intended to be).

Who needs to win when you always get a Positive play experience from fielding a giggling hat-man and his undead hookers?!

This is the quote of the day for me, some of my best games where loses.

[nilus]

Most of my shared slaughter games see 1 model die, or both players chilling out in their deployment zone/moving around until turn 6 then trying to cap one kill and get their schemes.

Exactly, which is not the point of the Strategy at all. Its why I have throw it out of my events. That and I have a problem with the current ruling with Stiched Together and slaughter, but that is a whole other debate.

[Buhallin]

Take Calmdown, so many people attack him and say he only wins because he plays broken crews (most recently, "He's only winning with Rezzers because he takes Von Schill") - I mean WTF? Very few acknowledge the general skill at Malifaux that goes into his games and the insight it takes to use a crew to the level where you're opponents cry "broken". Truth is, I'd bet he'd beat most people on here with a crew drawn out of a hat.

Just to be clear and fair, since it seems my Calmdown+Hoffman comment may have been misinterpreted - I was referring to his ongoing trend of complaining about broken models in the most absolute "I'm right and everyone else isn't" manner we all know and love, to include the snarky comments he's thrown in his sig in the past. I have no doubt he's a great player, and I'd never claim that was because he played only "broken" models. I actually wasn't aware that anyone threw that particular accusation at him - for all my issues with him, I think it's a deeply unfair criticism of someone who obviously knows the game, and wanted to correct any idea that I was jumping on that bandwagon.

On the larger point, you're saying exactly the same thing I was about tadaka - Malifaux is a game where someone who really knows the system and abilities can do absolutely magical things that make your head spin. In large part, that's why I question the validity of your "multiple local meta" argument - you were basically taking a set of ringers into a variety of local environments, stomping them with models they'd possibly never seen played and almost certainly never seen played the way you did, and then saying "See? Everywhere I go, people think Hamelin is broken."

[Justin]

Gamers + Internet = Overreaction.

[rancor709]

Gamers + Internet = Overreaction.

And the Quote of the Day is your's good Sir!

---------- Post added at 08:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:54 PM ----------

I want to stick my neck out here and say something about "skill" as opposed to "broken".

Firstly, I agree 100% that the cries of "broken" from people freshly stomped into the ground vastly exaggerate the problem. Losing badly because you didn't know how to play against something doesn't make it "broken" - it's more L2P. But people don't like being told L2P (whether it's meant insultingly or constructively) so they blame the opponents crew, and don't even think it's how good the other player is.

Take Calmdown, so many people attack him and say he only wins because he plays broken crews (most recently, "He's only winning with Rezzers because he takes Von Schill") - I mean WTF? Very few acknowledge the general skill at Malifaux that goes into his games and the insight it takes to use a crew to the level where you're opponents cry "broken". Truth is, I'd bet he'd beat most people on here with a crew drawn out of a hat.

And it's something that p*sses me off as well. I'm a very good player (if anyone wants to start another "You're so cocky to say that" attack like last time, go get a life) but so many times I hear that it's only because I play broken crews -

I start with Zoraida - people play me, lose badly and tell me she's broken.
I move to Pandora - people play me, lose badly and tell me she's broken.
I move to Hamelin - people play me, lose badly and tell me he's broken.
I move to Levi - people play me, lose badly and tell me he's broken.
I then move to SOMER FFS! - and now the consensus seems to be that he's broken!

Sure there's a lot of strong Masters in there but to me broken is something a complete n00b can pick up and effortlessly win with - not a crew that has taken months of thinking and practice to work out the interactions and actually get good with. (Disclaimer - I still think bury and Hamelin's crew mechanics are the two closest things to "broken" in the game)

(Also, on this, I don't think the argument that two players of equal skill buying starter boxes at random should expect an equal fight is valid. Some Masters are strong out of the box with limited growth potential, and others are seemingly weak out of the box but play awesomely with some practise - and some are awesome out of the box and "awesomer" with practise. That's how it is with a game designed for large and varied crew selection.)

So, rant aside, I do think there are certain serious balance issues that need addressing, but the harsh reality is everyone on here is at a different skill level and some people are going to be able to "break" crews and beat people (irrespective of the crew), and some people are going to buy the best powerplay lists out there and lose because they're just not as good as everyone else.

Malifaux is not a system where two players of varying skill are going to have an even/balanced game, and nor should it be. So please, before you cry "broken" stop and ask yourself if you lost because your opponent's crew is more powerful than yours, or because you simply aren't as good or flipped bad cards.

And sorry for the slight derail, the balance discussion is important but I just wanted to put some perspective in there about skill which is all to often overlooked or marginalised - especially when people think flaming Wyrd or the RMs over everything they lose to is a justification for their lack of playing ability. Inexperienced and/or poor players give valuable insight into crews and game issues, but it just p*ssed me off when people post about how broken stuff is because they lack the knowledge/experience/ability to play against it (or a lot of the time because they didn't see the "broken" thing themselves before it was pointed out) - and I think that's where most of the damage is done to non-players perception of the Malifaux system.

Okay, let the flaming begin....

Adam, I agree with what your saying here. Player skill in malifaux is huge its one the reason I am so in love with this game. Because it actually rewards skill and understanding of the rules as opposed to line up and roll sixes! There are some mechanics that should be looked at and you and I again agree on them, bury despite my love of Soulstone miner and with the continually regenerating rat horde. However I too grow tired of this and that is Overpowered it needs to be nerfed now.

I have played a lot of different minatures games none with the true variety of models and abilities and paths to victory that malifaux has and non nearly as skill based as malifaux. A large part of the problem as you said MagicPockets is the forums are a mixing pot of all different skill levels and stages in malifaux development. And the thing I can tell you about malifaux the first time you play against someone that understands there crew and you dont' know what it does you will likely be steamrolled but you will learn a lot. A skillful player will beat a lesser skilled player in malifaux 90/100 regardless of crew selection on both sides. And that is okay, when I was growing up if you got knocked down you got up and tried to figure out how to beat it. There is incredible combos and strong play potential in every crew in malifaux you have to look for you have to experiment, heck you might have to lose some games. But you learn more from losing than from winning but you learn nothing from not trying. We've all had kick your butt loses that have made us all crazy, its how we deal with them after that seperates us. Malifaux is a game of fun, and if your opponent is constantly kicking your butt with the same crew, might I humble suggest you swap crews for a game. The other player may find some trick in your crew you hadn't thought of or you might see something in theres that they hadn't seen. Or they may see that just having those models in front of them doesn't make them awesome. Balance is something we all love to call for, but how many of us understand that if player skill is the largest determining factor in winning than you have what your looking for already. That's not to say some rules interactions could do without some love and attention to make the game more solid, no one wants to play solitare in a miniatures game especially the one playing solitare.

I love this game and before we run for our pitchforks on advocates of the game, or start mobbing up because "I got beat by this man with a crazy gun and a bowie knife and really bad hair, and I had never seen him before and he has to be broken cause I'm awesome and no one has ever beat me so it must be broken..." Look at your own cards, and find what you can do against that guy read your cards, think about what you can do well, think about how he beat you not that he beat you! More thinking less reacting, and lets start asking for help, hey how do you beat this not, how can I ever win agaisnt this broken combo. And stop thinking that your crew sucks, focus on its strengths and making those count and for the love of all that is malifaux remember strategies and schemes are what wins games, well that and a skillfully played Seamus ;)

Sorry for the rant, Peace Love and Malifaux.

[Todd]

Now I wonder what prospective new players will think about this thread?