0 cost actions

[Tauwolf]

So, our playing group *just* realized that when an action costs "0", there is no flip necessary. We had been playing it as "flip a card and it only fails on the black joker".

Now, if that's the way it is then so be it, but wow, that really makes some zero cost actions powerful. I am not debating the way it is played, just questioning the game theory behind it.

It seems like there should still be card flip, for two main reasons:

1) Black Joker = Auto Fail
2) Even if there is no chance of failure (the black joker is in your hand), it seems that you should still have to pay the cost of advancing your deck one card.

Just tossing it out there for discussion.....

[Da Big Baws]

Ignore this.

[Soundwave]

Yeah, there's 0 action spells.

[Da Big Baws]

Ignore this

[Tauwolf]

Zero action spells, yeah. But I don't recall spells that require zero to cast. The OP is referring to flips, so it is about casting costs, not action costs.

Something is getting lost in translation here. There aren't Spells (capitol "S") in the game, just Actions and Abilities.

Abilities just happen. Actions have an associated cost. when you see:

Action Name (Action Value + Additional Cost)

sometimes you see the Action Value being "0" with no suits. Per the rules, when this is the case, you proceed directly to paying the Additional Cost and applying the Effects of the Action, skipping over any card flipping steps.

A Lady Justice example:

With My Eyes Closed! (0): Rg: 3, Effect: Move a Powerful Counter from this puppet to a Friendly Puppet that does not already have a Powerful Counter. LoS not required.


I believe we're all talking about the same thing, just trying to clear things up by using the correct terminology.

[Da Big Baws]

Ignore my comment, for some reason, I though we where on the Malifaux board talking about Malifaux rules. Hehehehe....

[Justin]

So, our playing group *just* realized that when an action costs "0", there is no flip necessary. We had been playing it as "flip a card and it only fails on the black joker".

Now, if that's the way it is then so be it, but wow, that really makes some zero cost actions powerful. I am not debating the way it is played, just questioning the game theory behind it.

It seems like there should still be card flip, for two main reasons:

1) Black Joker = Auto Fail
2) Even if there is no chance of failure (the black joker is in your hand), it seems that you should still have to pay the cost of advancing your deck one card.

Just tossing it out there for discussion.....

I was involved with development! I can talk about game theory! Yay, I feel useful!

Advancing your deck one card is not a cost at all. When you run out of cards in your deck, you reshuffle. The card which you "lose" has an equal chance of being a relatively useless 2 or a relatively valuable 13. If it's a low card with a suit you do not need, getting it out of your deck is actually a good thing because it thins your deck and leaves more of what you need. If it is a high card of a useful suit, then obviously that is a disadvantage. But since there is a completely equal chance of the (in itself minor) consequence being positive or negative, having the mechanic of uselessly flipping a card from your deck is a complete wash (after all, statistics are based on the probability that an action is positive or negative, and both outcomes are just as likely). Now, if running out of cards in your deck actually had some disadvantage associated with it, like you couldn't reshuffle and were just left with no cards (like in Magic the Gathering when you lose by being milled), you would have a very valid point.

As for the black joker: you are absolutely correct. 0 actions are slightly more powerful because the black joker can not auto fail them. But it is a very moderate advantage, because the black joker is only 1 out of 54 cards and is far more likely to be flipped in a multi card action (attack) or drawn into your hand. And basically we felt that the inconvenience of having to flip an essentially useless card outweighed the cost of 0 actions not being subject to the black joker (after all, games are about fun and being annoyed is...not fun. So mechanics which annoy players are inherently bad mechanics). Finally, it is balanced by the fact that all suits have relatively equal access to 0 actions, so while it does make 0 actions slightly more powerful as a whole, anyone can use them so it doesn't favor anybody.

[Tauwolf]

That was explained very well, thank you!

[Justin]

That was explained very well, thank you!

No problem.