Firing into melee 'trick shots'

[Vmag]

@Nix Thanks for the link, I plan to check out the rest of the blog soon. Pretty sure I've come across this previously from DakkaDakka. As for the question at hand though, I'm not entirely sure that the explanation provided quite covers what it was that I'm looking for. It's good and I appreciate the in-depth walk-through but I think I'm looking at a slightly different aspect of firing into melee.

I'm entirely fine with the concept of randomizing the target when firing into melee and I'm totally fine with the concept of hitting someone engaged in melee that is completely out of line of sight (and therefore not previously a legal target). The thing that is bugging me is the fact that models which are not engaged in melee whatsoever become legal targets for firing into melee and in fact it is tactically better to target your own model and thereby gain a better chance of actually targeting an enemy model than it is to target the enemy model straight away. (I just realized that in my example above the Steamborg would technically have two cards flipped due to its Ht 3 but my point remains, just the choice of models in the example was perhaps poor, replace Steamborg with any model that has a melee strike range of 2")

I'm perfectly fine if this is indeed what the intention was and how it is ruled. It just seems odd enough to me that I feel I must be missing something so I'm just looking for clarification that, provided the example above, this is exactly how the process would work. I can even justify, fluffily, to myself how such a thing could occur. But again, just looking to make sure that this is indeed how it is/was meant to be played since it opens a lot of different tactical possibilities for us.
Thanks!

[WookieeGunner]

Prior to the revolutionary war this seemed to be the way most wars were fought. Both sides line up and take turns shooting at each other.

True and in those engagements it would be possible to miss the guy you are aiming at and hit one of his buddies.

Which brings up an interesting point. If there are no enemy models in melee range of the target, but there are friendly models in range (for example a Gremlin gun line where the gremlins are base to base with no enemy models within say 4 inches) do you still use the Firing into Melee rules?

This actually matters in my group because we have players who will sometimes cluster gremlins so he can have So'mer/Slop Hauler heal them.

[nix]

I understand better (I think) where your coming from and what your asking. In fact, yes, per the rule it is sometimes better to target your own model than it is to target an enemy model. In your original example I believe it would have been better to target the Steamborg, but thats beside the point.

(better because the steamborg pulls more enemy models into melee than friendly because it includes all the enemy models within its 2 inch reach).

What your seeing is a situation where understanding and "gaming" the intricacies in the rules of the game is coming into effect. In this situation there needs to be a way to measure who is "involved" in a melee, and the game mechanic for doing so is a models melee range. Targeting a model with a large melee range that includes more enemy models than friendly models increases the chances of hitting an enemy model, even when that original target is friendly. This is a mechanical game issue vs an immersion game issue.

---------- Post added at 11:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------

True and in those engagements it would be possible to miss the guy you are aiming at and hit one of his buddies.

Which brings up an interesting point. If there are no enemy models in melee range of the target, but there are friendly models in range (for example a Gremlin gun line where the gremlins are base to base with no enemy models within say 4 inches) do you still use the Firing into Melee rules?

This actually matters in my group because we have players who will sometimes cluster gremlins so he can have So'mer/Slop Hauler heal them.

Without enemy models there is no melee, so there would be no randomization.

[Cadilon]

True and in those engagements it would be possible to miss the guy you are aiming at and hit one of his buddies.

Which brings up an interesting point. If there are no enemy models in melee range of the target, but there are friendly models in range (for example a Gremlin gun line where the gremlins are base to base with no enemy models within say 4 inches) do you still use the Firing into Melee rules?

This actually matters in my group because we have players who will sometimes cluster gremlins so he can have So'mer/Slop Hauler heal them.

Nope. To use the Firing Into Melee rules of RM.pg.44, the target has to be in melee. Being surrounded by friendly models does not count as being in melee.

[Vmag]

@Nix. Thanks, I knew that was probably right and the way it is supposed to work, I just needed clarification since it seemed kinda odd. This happened to come up this last weekend and it just threw us for a loop, thought way too hard about it
As far as the 'better' target, that was just an arbitrary assumption that the 'borg needed to die and it'd be harder to target if there were more models within its melee range than there were actually engaged in the melee in question. I think my trip-up came from thinking that the melee range of a model represents only the actual reach from the base itself as opposed to a threat range that the model would be moving about within during the melee. In this latter sense it would be easier to imagine the 'borg happens to be toward the back of it's threat range (close to the spiders) when the shot occurs so the spiders could very well be hit by the shot (i.e. targeted). Again this is all just a fluff understanding of the rules as written to help visualize what's going on in the game world.
thanks again.

[CrouchingMoose]

Im still having trouble wrapping my head around the wording for firing into melee, and id like some clarification...

I understand the idea of firing at a model you have LoS to and hitting a different model thats behind a wall. I also get how you can use firing into to melee in order to hit something outside your range normally (since you draw los and range before figuring the firing into melee rules). What i dont get is how to determine what is included in the melee.

Currently, im under the impression that the "melee" includes the targeted model and all models the targeted model is within the melee range of and all models within the targeted models melee range.

Is this right? Or would it just be the targetted model and opposing models that meet the criteria i listed above. Basically would it be smart to shoot at a spa (spider) of mine that is engaging an enemy along with 2 other spiders, or would the odds be against me in that instance

[Lucidicide]

My understanding is that if you're shooting at X, then you flip a card for:

• X
• All model's in X's melee range
• All enemy models that have X in their melee range (but weren't already flipped for).

As to the secondary question, if that spider has 2 other spiders in its melee and only 1 enemy... don't shoot at the spider.

[Vmag]

Yep, Lucidicide has it; cards are flipped for the target, every model in the target's melee range, and every model that has the target in its melee range.

@CrouchingMoose For your example it'd depend on how the SPA's were in relation to eachother since they only have a 1" melee range. If the models were arranged in a Y shape with the enemy model in the middle and SPAs on the top and bottom then you may have a better shot at hitting the enemy model if you targeted the bottom SPA than if you were to target the enemy model itself.

[CrouchingMoose]

Thanks...that clarified it a lot...i actually lost a game because my opponent said it wrong...i was laid out with 1 spider on one side of a model and an ec on the other ( not within range of each other though)...i shot at the ec and they made me flip for the ec, the model enganged with the ec and the spider because the spider was engaged with the model between it and the ec.

[Mergoth]

How many fights have you seen where everyone just stands stocks still and waits there turn to hit.

Two words. Historical Re-enactment.