Firing into melee 'trick shots'

[Cadilon]

This came up recently in gameplay, so its not a hypothetical.

Scenario 1
A is in melee with 1. 1 has a melee range of 2". 2,3,4 are within 1's melee.

B has LOS with A and 1, but not 2,3,4. B targets 1 with a ranged attack.

Does firing into melee dictate that 2,3,4 are now valid targets despite not being in LOS with B? This greatly increases the chances that you'll hit an enemy instead of yourself, despite 3 of the targets not being in LOS. I know there are penalties involved, but for a ranged unit who might not have any other action, it might not be a bad play.

Scenario 2
A is in melee with 1.

B has LOS with A, but not 1.

Can B target A with a ranged attack for a chance to hit 1, who would not otherwise be a valid target because of lack of LOS?

Both of these scenarios seem to be in keeping with the rules for firing into melee, but I want to make sure I am not missing something.

Thanks.

[CrazyCarl]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure shooting into melee allows targeting of models that would otherwise be out of line of sight. It's not really a trick shot, it's to represent models swirling in melee combat.

[Vmag]

​Had a similar scenario as 1 above come up recently also. Thought we had the firing into melee rules down but now we're not so sure. Just to clarify the situation a little more to fit ours...
A and B are on the same crew, 1,2,3,4 are on the same crew. A is engaged with 1 but not 2,3,4. 2,3,4 are within melee range of 1. B shoots at 1. Obviously we would need to flip for target between A and 1 but looking at the RAW for firing into melee, we would also flip for 2,3, and 4 because they are within the targets melee range. Is this correct?

[Cadilon]

That's the way I read it.

[kasin666]

the bullet bounced off 1s thick skull hitting 3

[Mike3838]

Taking this to the extreme. A can only see B. B is in melee with 1,2,3, all of whom are out of LOS.

A shoots his own model B, but only has 25% chance to hit his friend as he also has to randomise for the 3 enemy models he could never have actually targeted? *That's* a trick shot!

Mike

[Ratty]

They are in a melee some of the time they will be trying to bash your guy in the head and therefore can be seen, just like some of the time your model will be out of sight trying to dodge. How many fights have you seen where everyone just stands stocks still and waits there turn to hit.

[Vmag]

I guess where I'm coming from is not so much the fact that someone in melee can be hit if they are out of LOS but rather that models which are NOT engaged in melee can be hit by a shot fired into melee. Unless I'm misunderstanding what is considered to be melee. To me 'being in melee' refers to those models which are within the range of one or more opposing crew model's melee strike weapon. This is the same as being 'engaged'.

From my example above, A and 1 would be engaged (and therefore in 'melee'), however 2,3 and 4 are NOT engaged with A and therefore not in melee with A but are still viable targets when 1 is shot at by B. The 2, 3, and 4 models are included in the flips to see who is actually targeted only because the rules state (as I am understanding them now) that ALL models within the target's melee range (i.e. their melee strike distance) are viable targets. Initially we were understanding firing into melee to involve ONLY those models which are engaged, not all models within the target's melee strike range. THAT's what I'm trying to clarify (sorry for the caps, just easier to use emphasis this way while typing instead of switching to italics font).

To put this in a clearer example... The Steamborg is 2" away from Santiago (these two models are therefore engaged and in melee due to the Steamborgs melee range). There are three spiders 2" away from the Steamborg and directly (or as close to directly as possible) opposite from Santiago. The spiders and Santiago are NOT engaged nor are they in melee but they ARE within the Steamborgs melee strike range. Nino then makes a ranged strike at the Steamborg. So it is correct then to flip for Santiago, Steamborg, and each of the three spiders in order to determine the target of Ninos strike?

Following this; if Nino were instead to target Santiago the only models to flip to determine the actual target for would be Santiago and the Steamborg. So in this situation it may actually be better for Nino to fire at Santiago (and have a roughly 50% chance of targeting the Steamborg) and cheat as necessary if Santiago ended up as the target than it would be for Nino to target the Steamborg (and have a a roughly 20% chance of actually targeting the Steamborg).

[nix]

It seems like there is an undercurrent in the wider Malifaux community lately. This exact subject came up with some newer players in my gaming group recently as well.

Its a shameless plug, but I put together a lengthy explanation with RM page references on my blog to cover how shooting, targeting, and specifically firing into melee works. Hope this helps.

http://deadtau.blogspot.com/2012/02/...-sequence.html

[micahwc]

They are in a melee some of the time they will be trying to bash your guy in the head and therefore can be seen, just like some of the time your model will be out of sight trying to dodge. How many fights have you seen where everyone just stands stocks still and waits there turn to hit.

Prior to the revolutionary war this seemed to be the way most wars were fought. Both sides line up and take turns shooting at each other.