Ryle vrs Coppelius's Hallucinations Spell

[zatoichi98]

As Ryle is both living and a construct, is he subject to the 'fall back' effect from Coppelius's spell? (or is his 'living' status only considered for his 'Mechanized' talent?)

[Ratty]

It doesn't cause a Wp check so his breach psychosis wouldn't save him. And he's living so he would fall back.

[zatoichi98]

Ratty, thanks for the quick reply, but now I gotta ask;

Does this also mean that LCB would heal 1 Wd when Ryle is wounded by a melee stike (if within 4")?

[sharpobjects]

His mechanized ability which states a reason as to why he leaves 3 scrap counters instead of two for a 40m base states because he is living and a construct.

The top left of his character card lists Construct for his characteristic. If a model has a talent/spell that effects living models and we are now saying Ryle is affected, then what do we do with all the instances in which the construct characteristic ignores effects such as terrifying?

Living models must make the wp>Tn check or fall back. Constructs do not. We get into a sticky situation by saying he is both construct and living for the purposes of effects. There are too many instances where having both characteristics creates a loop.

On a side note, if he is living and construct for the purpose of his actual characteristic then he should drop two scrap and one body part. That makes more sense than three scrap.

[Adran]

Ryle is both a construct and living.
Anything which effects constructs will effect him. Anything which effects living models will effect him.
No Card has living in the top left corner. To put it on one or two cards would lead to hundreds of questions from people saying that their model doesn't say living.
Constructs are immune to moral duels, so he is immune to moral duels.

Don't see any loops.
And I'll grant you its strange that being living means he drops an extra scrap counter rather than a corpse counter, but thats the way it is.

[sharpobjects]

Living models are affected by terrifying. If he is both living and construct there is a loop right there. which characteristic takes precedence in that situation?

When referring to page 9 in the rule book where it explains characteristics; a model with the construct characteristic are non-living and are immune to morale duels. By making him living it contradicts his characteristic of construct at the core.

I know very well that they do not place living at the top of the card which is why his listed characteristic construct should be his characteristic and the living explanation in mechanized is to justify him dropping more counters for a 40mm base.

There are many effects that only target constructs as well as only target living models. I say he is construct and would not be affected by something and my opponent says he is living and he is affected. I say he is living and he is not affected by something that affects constructs and my opponent says he is construct and is affected.

I don't see how we can have it both ways especially when at the core, constructs are non-living models. If he is living then he is affected by terrifying, if he is affected by terrifying then that slides us down a slope where he no longer works in a crew of constructs. The living part is enough to render him useless when targeting him for effects that affect constructs. My opponent can just call, hey he is living too and living models are not affected by that action.

[Calmdown]

Yes, he is both a construct and living and no, it doesn't create a loop.

It goes like this:

1) Something is terrifying and Ryle is next to it.
2) We check Ryle for the criteria of the terrifying rule: is he living? Yes, he is, so he is eligible for the effects of terrifying. (it doesn't matter that he is also non-living. Terrifying doesn't check for 'non-living', it just checks for the presence of 'living', which Ryle is)
3) Terrifying kicks in and Ryle has to make a morale duel
4) We see that Ryle is a construct, and this makes him immune to morale duels. Hence, the morale duel is voided.

Terrifying and Morale duels are different things, it just so happens that one makes the other happen. Ryle is not immune to terrifying and is eligible for its effects, it just so happens that he's immune to one of those effects.


This is a completely separate effect to Coppellius' hallucinations. That explicitly makes a model fall back, it in no way involves a morale duel, so Ryle is a perfectly eligible target.

[Ropetus]

Ryle is a Construct, and his special rule states that he is also living. Since rules on cards trump general rule, he is a Construct which is living instead of non-living. Thus he will be affected by all effects that affect living models, as well as all effects that affect Constructs. He also has all the rules for Constructs, including immunity to Morale Duels. Anything that targets non-living models has no effect on him as he is living.

He can be targeted by Hallucinations no problem, as he has the Living trait. Same goes for anything that begins with "Target Construct..." or "Target living model...".

When facing a Terrifying model (let's forget Breach Psychosis for this example) he is affected by the ability since he is living, but will pass automatically since he is immune to Morale Duels due to being a Construct. This is in no way different from living models with Frozen Heart or Lifer: they would be affected by Terrifying if they didn't have an Ability that made them immune.

-Ropetus

[zatoichi98]

I am confused as why is his status as "living" is checked first, then his characteristic of "construct" second? Is this in the rulebook somewhere? If Ryle were "undead" instead of "living" would the same test apply and in that order?

And as his status of "living" is listed as abiliity, does this mean it could possibly be removed? (via a combination of Insideous Madness using Wispers and Zorida casting Hex) And if it was removed, I presume he would only leave 2 scrap counters.

I know all of this is a stretch, but is seems odd that his "living" staus could be taken away in such a manner.

[Turbodog]

"I know all of this is a stretch, but is seems odd that his "living" staus could be taken away in such a manner."

Easier way:

Hoffman maintain machines and he ignores the text. Now he's just a 40mm base construct (not living at all).

Only reason to do this mind you is get rid of living characteristic. It's better for Hoffman to get 3 scrap counters from Ryle...