Malifaux rules as a continuing product

[Buhallin]

I was mainly referring to the first book. And it is in no way a stretch to call that book obsolete.

That would be why I said "with the exception of the first book", which even Nathan acknowledged is outdated.

If by consistent, you mean that every printed copy of a book is identical, and none of the changes or errata are ever rolled into newer printings, then that seems like it would never be the best option. If that was the case then you would simply know to never buy an old book for Malifaux unless all you wanted was the stories. The rules would never again be current, and that book would not be overly useful in regards to playing a game of Malifaux.

This isn't just an academic discussion - I've dealt with it.

Spartan Games has frequently updated their books during reprints. It sounds like it would be awesome, but it's really rather annoying. When you're discussing rules you've got page numbers that don't match up, examples that exist in one book but not the other (or, worse, exist in both but are different).

Having to composite a base set of rules plus an online errata is much, much easier to deal with in comparison. You also introduce the annoyance of people having to buy a new book to fix it, which a lot of people don't want to do.

The same consistency problem is introduced with Lalo's uber-book idea. You either update rules and make meaningful changes, in which case everyone is upset at having to buy the new book, or you don't - in which case you've just spent a ton of time and effort on a book that a lot of your customers won't buy, and created a "Page X of which book again?" problem. This is, again, something that has been done - Flames of War has a mini-rulebook with most of the rules, but they're all on different pages. It's a hassle.

Honestly, I'd love to see everything you're suggesting, and Lalo is suggesting. But I don't think it's realistic from a cost or effort issue to expect Wyrd, or any company, to do this.

[CannibalBob]

Honestly, I'd love to see everything you're suggesting, and Lalo is suggesting. But I don't think it's realistic from a cost or effort issue to expect Wyrd, or any company, to do this.

My point was that it should pretty much cost almost nothing to send an updated file for a book to the printing company when you request a new print run. These books are all compiled digitally. If you look, the Malifaux book is printed somewhere in asia, so I am pretty sure they are just emailing the file to their supplier. It should not cost anything to email a newer version when they request a new print run.

I guess you could say that it would cost them something to update the file. But it looks like they are already doing that with the online pdfs. It should not really cost them much to roll those changes into the file they send to the printer.

It might not be the best solution altogether, but I think it is certainly better than just having a bunch of outdated books and expecting everyone to go to the internet. I have found that most gamers don't really bother.

I have seen the same thing you are talking about. I have played miniature games for over 2 decades now and have seen how plenty of different companies do things. I also play the Spartan Games, and have dealt with the various printings they have. It is not that big a deal I have found. The books all have the date of printing in them, and you should have a date attached to any errata you print.

The opposite issue you run into is that as mentioned earlier you need something on the shelf for retailers. It can be hard to get people into a game where playing requires reams of printed FAQ and errata carried with you. Most people do not want to go online to look for that stuff, and they certainly don't want to cart it around with them and deal with it in a game.

The small rules manual was a great idea. Not only is it portable, but it is well put together, very concise with its explanations, and has a superb index and reference. It is also stupid cheap. If they need to make an update to the core rules at some point I would hope that they would update the small rules manual. If they did, I would happily buy another one rather than cart a bunch of printed FAQ around with me. Fifteen bucks for a more up to date set of rules won't break my bank. By the same token, I would like a convenient way to update my model rules.

In my experience in table-top gaming, consistency is nowhere near as nice as convenience. I will pay extra money for things that make it more convenient to play. And I will also play a game more often if it is convenient to do so - which in turn keeps me buying stuff for said game.

I love that Wyrd sells the small rules manual individually. GW made small rules manuals for their games, but then makes it a pain to purchase them. I will buy the big book for home reference, but I don't want to cart a giant tome with me to play a game. Not being able to buy those books outside of an expensive box set which most likely I only want 50% or none of the minis is simply annoying. Privateer Press is making a condensed rule book as well, and they are also not selling it outside of an expensive box. If a condensed rules set is available by itself I will happily purchase it. And I would also be happy to replace it periodically as rules evolve.

Using cards to track stats, damage, effects, etc makes things very convenient. I love that about the Privateer Press games. Privateer had a good idea in making replacement cards easy to acquire when they changed the rules. Sadly they don't ever seem to do any significant errata to models - so there is no need for update cards after a rules revision.

One thing I wish Wyrd would do is redesign their cards. I like that they have all the rules on them for a model - thats great. What I don't like is that they fold. So if you put them into a sleeve in order to make damage tracking simple you cannot unfold the card to read the rules. That is a bit annoying. My other issue is that right now it is inconvenient to replace the cards. I will probably replace the ones I need through the store when I do a big order for the gencon stuff, but that does not really work well for most people.

The print-off pdfs are nice, but most people would rather have the actual cards.

[Justin]

The same consistency problem is introduced with Lalo's uber-book idea. You either update rules and make meaningful changes, in which case everyone is upset at having to buy the new book, or you don't - in which case you've just spent a ton of time and effort on a book that a lot of your customers won't buy, and created a "Page X of which book again?" problem. This is, again, something that has been done - Flames of War has a mini-rulebook with most of the rules, but they're all on different pages. It's a hassle.

Honestly, I'd love to see everything you're suggesting, and Lalo is suggesting. But I don't think it's realistic from a cost or effort issue to expect Wyrd, or any company, to do this.

It becomes very worth it because of the model rules and, eventually, the avatar rules.

Differing page numbers is really pretty inconsequential compared to the simple ability to point a new player at a book and say, "There, everything you need."

And old players will buy them, simply for convenience. Which version of the card do you have? Eh, whatever, it's in the book.

Look at games workshop. Not a great example of a lot of things, but their mini rulebook + big rulebook is pretty nice.

Even if they were tot totally break even financially on this book, it's completely worth the effort because it's not about selling books; it's about selling models. More accessible rules means more new players means more model sales.

[Buhallin]

Look at games workshop. Not a great example of a lot of things, but their mini rulebook + big rulebook is pretty nice.

Maybe... But it's not a gream comparison, because GW never updates their books at all. Everything you're saying here should happen, GW doesn't do.

<shrug> It's easy to say it should happen, but if it were that easy, I tend to think they'd do it. There's a lot more involved in it than I think you're crediting.

[Justin]

Maybe... But it's not a gream comparison, because GW never updates their books at all. Everything you're saying here should happen, GW doesn't do.

<shrug> It's easy to say it should happen, but if it were that easy, I tend to think they'd do it. There's a lot more involved in it than I think you're crediting.

The point about GW was simply about a company that had a large and small book with matching page numbers, which both sell. Their model rules work entirely differently than Wyrd or Privateer because they tend to update old lines rather than create new ones (for the most part) which cuts down on SKU creep for stores because when new stuff comes out, old stuff cycles out. But they have that luxury, because they have old lines to update. So, different story entirely there. Point was simply about the format of the rulebooks, and that both large and small versions sell.

Didn't say it was easy. Just said it was in their best interests. And I think it's a point worth making, because the customers that they're losing over this aren't customers at all...yet. They're the people who look at all the different books they have to go through to figure out the game, shrug their shoulders, and walk away. They don't get on here and complain. The loss is hidden because it's not loss at all: it's lack of growth. But both are just as costly. We're just starting to see a hint of that problem now, but I think after book 3 it will be far larger.