Mindless Zombie vs Malifaux Rats

[magicpockets]

but the zombie is first...

The Rat has spoken and he has a badge ;)

[Mike3838]

I still think this bears further clarification though Ratty.

Empty vessel says:

"Place a number of MZs equal to the defenders base size... Defender does not generate Corpse Counters"

The very wording of the trigger states that Corpse counters can't be generated.

So... unless you take the stance that the MZs are placed from the trigger (and not from the death of the model, corpse counters or no), then Empty Vessel will never ever work since the wording of the trigger contradicts itself.

Mike

[sephiroa]

The original ruling was correct. As they are counters they can't be generated as a result of the model dying.

stil i think it would be weird, because the zombie is placed because of a model dying same as the rats with varocious rats they are summoned because of the rat bying killed.

but only because the zombie has this ability that he is a walking corpse counter it does not count?

so if i would follow this, that means that a constructs, nigtmares soulles and spirits cannot turn into mindless zombies?
spirits i understand, and constructs as well. but then you still have special constructs that drop a corpse counter as well. would they turn into a mindless zombie as well?

than the empty vessel trigger should have been different:
now it says: After killing a living or Undead
defender with a Teeth Strike, place a number of Mindless
Zombies equal to the defender’s base size in base contact
with the defender before it is removed from play. Defender
does not generate Corpse Counters. (its in white, it could be possible that they won't like it me posting this, if they don't like it, i wil delete it immediatly)
even here it says that the killed model won't generate corpse counters.
it just saying something about the model being killed. not that they are being generated from a corpse counter.

sorry if i'm being annoying right now, but the ruling isn't making any sense to me

[sephiroa]

I still think this bears further clarification though Ratty.

Empty vessel says:

"Place a number of MZs equal to the defenders base size... Defender does not generate Corpse Counters"

The very wording of the trigger states that Corpse counters can't be generated.

So... unless you take the stance that the MZs are placed from the trigger (and not from the death of the model, corpse counters or no), then Empty Vessel will never ever work since the wording of the trigger contradicts itself.

Mike

exactly what i was saying,,

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

If a model cannot generate counters normally, then a Mindless Zombie cannot be placed.

[sephiroa]

and it says that a MZ counts as. but he isn't one,

to make a 40k example: some infantry can count as a jetbike for moving purposes, but it still is infantry

exactly the same as here, MZ is a minion, but counts as a walking corpse counter.

i can understand it with the Desolation engine, that you won't get 3 zombies because of the 2 steampunk abominations, so that only one can be placed because of its 50mm base and the rule that you can't place or summon more minions than the base allows.

[sephiroa]

oooh well,,
still doesn't make sense to me, but okay

soo, what about the voracious rats? isn't this the same principle?
they say the exact same thing, the difference is that with the rats, it would be any model, even spirits and constructs

[Mike3838]

Thanks Sketch

So, in summary Empty Vessel should in fact say:
"If a model is killed, instead of placing corpse counters, place a number of Mindless Zombies equal to the number of corpse counters that would have been generated"

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Thanks Sketch

So, in summary Empty Vessel should in fact say:
"If a model is killed, instead of placing corpse counters, place a number of Mindless Zombies equal to the number of corpse counters that would have been generated"

Exactly. And remember that Place is different than Summon. ;)

[sephiroa]

Thanks Sketch

So, in summary Empty Vessel should in fact say:
"If a model is killed, instead of placing corpse counters, place a number of Mindless Zombies equal to the number of corpse counters that would have been generated"

well if said like this, there wouldn't be this discussion ;)
but now that sketch said it would be like this. i believe this discussion is finished

@ ratty and sketch: sorry i was such a pain in the ass :D