Mindless Zombie vs Malifaux Rats

[rgtriplec]

So, if a zombie kills a rat with a teeth strike what happens:

1. Empty vessel makes a Zombie

2. Voracious Rats makes a rat

3. Both 1 & 2

4. You get a Malifaux Mindless Zombie Rat in a future release

[magicpockets]

2 if Empty Vessel says "summon" and its within 6" of Hsmelin or a Rat Catcher

[Wodschow]

Similar question was asked here:
http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20890

Ruling in that thread means however that you will never be able to use Empty Vessel at all..


Disregarding that (even if it's a Rules Marshal ruling..).. It should work as Mindless Zombies are placed, not summoned, which is what Voracious Rats prevents.

Edit: Realized I didn't answer the question: You'd get both..

[DonB]

I was sure the rat would be, first. But then I refreshed my memory of the rules, and now I'm confused. You summon a rat, and you place a zombie. Both seem to occur at the same time.

So my conclusion is, That's a bloody good question!

[sephiroa]

nope, if both things occur when someone dies, the one who is activited occurs first

same when an executioner kills a gamin. FIRTS he heals all his wounds an then he gets the 2 damage, not the other way arround.

following the previous example. first the mindless zombie is placed an then a rat. and the Varocious rats prevent other monsters being summoned, but they are being placed, and since the empty vessel goes first, he wins,

its the same os the other rule in the manual i think, when there are creatures summoned or placed or you have an ability wich allows you to draw cards or stuff, only the one closest to the model that dies gets to activate his ability, so in both ways the mindless zombies empty vessel wins, (unless the rat cather is standing on the rat but i doubt that)

that would be my thought about it since they are replaced from the model, even if they don't generate counters, its the same as the mannequin replacement, they just get replaced not summoned trough a counter.

[rgtriplec]

Similar question was asked here:
http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20890

Ruling in that thread means however that you will never be able to use Empty Vessel at all..


Disregarding that (even if it's a Rules Marshal ruling..).. It should work as Mindless Zombies are placed, not summoned, which is what Voracious Rats prevents.

Edit: Realized I didn't answer the question: You'd get both..

I read that thread and two others on similar subjects. One reason I still asked is because although we are dealing with a fantasy game where nothing that happens is remotely possible. It goes against the fluff or game logic that one body would generate two things. Its not a magical occurrence per se like a magician summoning a spirit or demon or something, its rats multiplying because there are bodies feed off of and bodies turning into zombies. You can't be consumed by rats and turned into zombie.


One bad thing about this section of the forum is you don't really know who's answer is correct a lot of the time. Other forums you know who is an official voice because it'll say something like "Add game's name Team Member" or "Add game's name mod" below the posters name. Granted, Henchman often give answers but that doesn't make it an official ruling in my mind.

Maybe a sticky that lists whose answers are official could keep multiple threads on similar subjects down.

Thanks for the answer.

edit:

Actually, I see the little Marshal Stars now

[DonB]

yep, I'd love a rules marshall to rule on this one. I play both Nico and Hamelin, this situation could happen and I intend to start playing a LOT more now that I'm heading back to Australia, so would be great to know.

[sephiroa]

It goes against the fluff or game logic that one body would generate two things. Its not a magical occurrence per se like a magician summoning a spirit or demon or something, its rats multiplying because there are bodies feed off of and bodies turning into zombies. You can't be consumed by rats and turned into zombie.

well, this is very easy to answer, if you are bitten and killed by the zombie that would be the first to activate because the rats come from a further distance and are to late to eat the body because its already a zombie. get it? :p

this would be mine answer

[Ratty]

The original ruling was correct. As they are counters they can't be generated as a result of the model dying.

[DonB]

but the zombie is first...