Totems and Discard soul stones

[Ratty]

"But on occasion models without the ability can or the player discards the soulstone."

The first part refers to a few abilities on models that allow you to use soulstones without Use Soulstone like the Mechanical Doves or the Soulstone miners "Limited Soulstone Use".

The second part refers to the choice to reflip initiative and abilities like Undying that say the player who hired it discards the Soulstone not the model.

Other than abilities that say you can use soulstones specifically or abilities that say the player specifically discards the soulstone you can't use soulstones. If you copied Undying you would be able to, but you would have to be a moron to copy Undying, as you would still take Wds on your model, so he could die that way, and he would also be killed if you didn't discard a card or soulstone each time he was hit.

OK there are only a few abilities on models

[Chipacabra]

Honestly, I don't see anything about Use Soulstone that says it's an absolute requirement to use soulstone. Having the Use Soulstone gives you access to all the soulstone powers, but I can't find anything in the rules that says that's the ONLY way a model can spend/discard soulstone. And pg 14 says that it's NOT the only way. I think if the intention is that pigeons can't cast disappearing act, there needs to be some errata.

[LoboStele]

Honestly, I don't see anything about Use Soulstone that says it's an absolute requirement to use soulstone. Having the Use Soulstone gives you access to all the soulstone powers, but I can't find anything in the rules that says that's the ONLY way a model can spend/discard soulstone. And pg 14 says that it's NOT the only way. I think if the intention is that pigeons can't cast disappearing act, there needs to be some errata.

Umm...it's because the intention is that the Doves CANNOT cast Disappearing Act. They are already plenty powerful enough as it is.

Beyond that, Ratty is a Rules Marshall, and his word is like law around here. ;)

[Keltheos]

Honestly, I don't see anything about Use Soulstone that says it's an absolute requirement to use soulstone. Having the Use Soulstone gives you access to all the soulstone powers, but I can't find anything in the rules that says that's the ONLY way a model can spend/discard soulstone. And pg 14 says that it's NOT the only way. I think if the intention is that pigeons can't cast disappearing act, there needs to be some errata.

Here's the easy way to look at it. When is a model allowed to use a Soulstone? When it's permitted. What permits it?

Use Soulstone Ability
when it specifically states it can

The Doves don't fit either category.

Sort of like Cheating. You can cheat every Duel, but not every flip.

[Chipacabra]

Here's the easy way to look at it. When is a model allowed to use a Soulstone? When it's permitted. What permits it?

Use Soulstone Ability
when it specifically states it can

The Doves don't fit either category.

Sort of like Cheating. You can cheat every Duel, but not every flip.

But Disappearing Act says discard a soulstone. I haven't seen anything in the rulebook, or errata, or this forum that suggests you HAVE to have Use Soulstone in this case. Please, cite the rule that says you can't discard a soulstone when an ability tells you to discard a soulstone. I really want to know.

[Keltheos]

p.118

The actual Use Soulstone Ability description.

[Buhallin]

If there are any additional requirements that must be met in order for the spell to be cast, they must be met now or the spell immediately fails. These requirements are found in the first sentence of the Spell's description and include: the caster suffering Wd, sacrificing/discarding Counters or Soulstones...

Spending the soulstone is not an effect - it is a requirement. The spell doesn't enable you to spend the stone if you couldn't normally, any more than it would allow you to discard a counter you didn't have.

So even if you cast the spell successfully, you then have to discard a soulstone. If you can't (because it's a requirement, not an instruction) then the spell immediately fizzles and does nothing else.

Edit: Removed irrelevant rules citation, since the first one covers it.

[tenabrae]

I'm kinda in the devil's advocate category here... Is an Additional Requirement for a spell or similar really a Use Soulstone kinda deal ? Collette and her crew can make models without soulstones/use soulstone discard them.

If so, could be worth adding to the next FAQ.

[Chipacabra]

p.118

The actual Use Soulstone Ability description.

What about it? Here's the ability:

Use Soulstones
This model may use game effects that require soulstones. All Masters and Henchmen automatically have this ability unless states otherwise.

This says that having Use Soulstone gives you access to those game effects, but does NOT say that it is the only way you can discard soulstones. Nothing about that text says to me that it prevents a dove from casting Disappearing Act.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Does dove have use soulstone? - no
Does dove have any ability that allows it to discard soulstones? - no

Here is the clincher:
Does the absence of an ability give the model the ability? - NO

Here is key wording from magical extension that states how totem can use ss:
During this casting, this model may use a soulstone to CHANGE IT'S CASTING TOTAL while casting this spell.

Discard a ss for any other reason is not permitted. Unless model has some ability granted to or explicitly built into model.