The Dreamer, Rules Manual and Rules Marshalls

[gnam]

[LIST][*]If Dreamer is within 3 inches of a nightmare

• Non-Melee attacks will fail if the nightmare is not in range but is in LOS.
• Melee Attacks can target Dreamer if the nightmare is out of range
• Melee Attacks must target nightmare if it is within range

I'm a bit confused as to what makes the first bullet point right?

What prohibits ranged attacks from targeting the Dreamer if they are within range to him, and not to the Nightmare using the ruling above?

For example, if a model is 11.5" away from the Dreamer with a Teddy 3" behind him (Teddy is 14.5" away from the shooting model).

If the Shooting Model has a range of 12" and targets the Dreamer, can he succeed in shooting him? The Teddy is not a "legal target" because he is out of range, so Shadowy Form would not take affect?

Is this correct?

[Keltheos]

I'm a bit confused as to what makes the first bullet point right?

What prohibits ranged attacks from targeting the Dreamer if they are within range to him, and not to the Nightmare using the ruling above?

For example, if a model is 11.5" away from the Dreamer with a Teddy 3" behind him (Teddy is 14.5" away from the shooting model).

If the Shooting Model has a range of 12" and targets the Dreamer, can he succeed in shooting him? The Teddy is not a "legal target" because he is out of range, so Shadowy Form would not take affect?

Teddy is still a target. Measuring range happens after determining if the model's eligible to be declared a target in the first place. So, Teddy's in LoS, you can't declare Dreamer as a target even if Ted's actually out of range. Just like if you'd wanted to shoot at Teddy at 14.5" and he was out of range. He can still be declared a target, but when you check that he's a legal target (i.e. in range) you find that he's too far to hit and the Duel never happens.

The Dreamer's Shadowy Form works in this way when it comes to timing (and it's geekeese heavy, so go with the flow):

1. You want to shoot the Dreamer (assuming your above ranges).
2. You declare that you will target the Dreamer.
3. (RM p.14) you check that the Dreamer's in LoS. Check.
4. (RM p.14) you check that there are any special situations that would prevent the Dreamer being targeted (outside of Talent/Spells). None, so far so good.
5. (RM p.14) You check if the Dreamer has any Talents/Spells that would prevent it being targeted. Shadowy Form...ok. Let's check Teddy as a target.
6. You check to see if Teddy is in LoS. yup.
7. Are there any special situations preventing you declaring Teddy as a target? Nope.
8. Does Teddy have any Talents/Spells that would prevent it being targeted? Nope.
9. Teddy could be declared a target.
10. The Dreamer's Shadowy Form kicks in so you cannot target him. It doesn't fizzle anything as you're checking if he's eligible to even be targeted at this point.
11. Change targets if you so choose. Let's say you do and declare Teddy. We already know he can be targeted.
12. Check range to Teddy, he's out of range, therefore he's not a legal target of the attack.
13. Without a legal target the attack misses (RM p.42).

whew. Now this is too long to put into a sigline.

Folks are blending when target choice/declaration/range measurement/legal target for a strike duel to occur together. The above's the exploded view of what's going on.

[gnam]

Ah, ok, I couldn't find anywhere in the book that said that someone out of range for a Melee attack isn't a legal target. The only reference I could find to legal target was at the beginning of the book (page 14 I believe) that says you declare and then measure, and if you are in range it's a legal target.

Do you know where it refers to melee range being required for it to be a legal target? I know I'll get asked at my local store.

[Keltheos]

Yeah, page 42. it's in the first step before the Duel begins (1. Declare Target, then Check Range). Since melee range can be checked whenever you're always aware of whether two models are engaged or not.

You'd know before even saying you want to target the Dreamer Teddy's not a legal target when it comes to melee range. I am going to revise the errata above to clarify the difference between melee and ranged though.

Spot Errata/FAQ addition: Replace Shadowy Form description with "Enemy models cannot target the Dreamer with Actions or Strikes if there is a friendly Nightmare within 3” of the Dreamer that could be a legal target of the Action."

This covers the above for ranged timing as well as the melee situations and legal targets. Same intent, clarified to cover the new Rules Manual 'legal target' terminology.

[Truefaith]

Ok, threadomancy here.

Just to sum up, if the Dreamer is less then 3in from Teddy and the dreamer is in Ikyro's melee and Teddy is outside of Ikyro's melee, she can bash the Dreamer.

But if Nino is shooting the dreamer he has to target Teddy and if Teddy is out of range the attack fails.

I just don't get it. On page 14 of the newer Little Rule Book, it talks about legal target and mentions range, so if your out of shooting range how is that a legal target? Its not. So shadowy form is errata'd to say "legal target in melee and target at range"?

[poulpox]

As far as I'm aware the final revision of Shadowy form was that the Nightmare must be a legal target in order to deflect the attack from the Dreamer. A legal target in terms of melee means the defender has to be in melee range and LoS. A legal target in terms of ranged attack means the defender has only to be in LoS (he is then targeted, but if out of range the attack fizzles).

[karn987]

Just to bump it, the errata for Shadowy form can be found Here: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost...9&postcount=34

And has been linked in Sketch and Kel's signatures.

[Truefaith]

Right I have that book marked, Kel's errata.

Para phrasing: Enemies cannot target the Dreamer if he's within 3in of a friendly nightmare if the nightmare could be a legal target.

But page 14 says to be a legal target you have to be in range. "If the target is within the effect's range and meets the above requirements, it is considered a legal target of the effect."

Strike attack sequence on pg 42 says "otherwise, the target is out of range, is not a legal trget, and the strike fails." So that's for shooting or melee.

I'm under the impression that if the dream has teddy 2.5in behind him and nino has only rng to shoot the dreamer, he would fail because teddy is within line of sign which makes him a target. But when you check he's out, so he's not a legal target, and the rng attack fails.

So melee works differently because its been errata'd? Even though the sequence for a strike on pg 42 says declare target, then check range. And if your out of range you fail.

Maybe I'm missing a page in the book?

[Truefaith]

So "legal target" has been changed to support this?

If a target is in LoS,for ranged attack its a legal target, but in melee you als have to be in melee range?

[Kintaro]

I also have a question :

You all keep referring to an attack "failing"....if that's the case, does that mean that the AP spent on the strike is still spent? Or since it can not be a legal target, the point is NOT spent and you can basically try again on another target (or use the point on whatever if it's a general AP)?
"Failed" seems to imply that you've got all the way "through" the strike - so to speak - and so the point would be spent.

I have only battled a few crews so far, and the Dreamer is by far the most difficult to figure out how to stop. My opponent plays the crew really really well, and after the game HE said he didn't know how to stop it! Knowing this sequence and the ruling helps a bit, as I think I can now figure out a way on how to mitigate this crew's seeming invulnerability.

Thanks!