The Dreamer, Rules Manual and Rules Marshalls

[Definitechoice]

There seem to be a few issues that were ruled on in the past by Weird Sketch and Keltheos but are contrary to what is printed in the new Rules Manual. Some of these seem to be rule amendments designed to eliminate the specific issue by turning it into a general rule. For instance, the last paragraph of Multiple Activations(p.31) reverses this post by Keltheos. Another instance is that while before only the Dreamer could bypass the general rule on burying and unburying(Weird Sketch's ruling), now the general Buried(p.13) have been changed from "when the effect that buried them allows them to do so" to "when an effect allows it to do so."

This seems to establish that the Rules Manual trumps the prior Marshall rulings.

My main concern is this post by Keltheos, and the thread around it. Keltheos breaks the general Strike rules by stating that with melee strikes you cannot declare a target that is outside of your melee range. A Nightmare within 3" of the Dreamer but outside of melee range with a model trying to Strike the Dreamer would not be an eligible target and Shadowy Form would not take effect. However, no such requirement made it into the Rules Manual, and there is a clear distinction made between target and Legal Target(p.14). To declare a target, you need to check line of sight, special situations, and Talents/Spells that would prevent it. After that, range is measured and if the target is within range, it becomes a Legal Target. The Strike Sequence(p.42) reinforces this. "A model must be within the attacker's LoS to be declared the target of a Strike," then the range is checked and if "the target is out of range, is not a legal target. and the Strike fails."

So, should we be expecting a Dreamer errata changing Shadowy Form to require a Legal Target? Should this be played by the Rules Manual as written, or by the older ruling?

[James.]

At our club we've just been playing rules manual trumps all. You have to remember that the rules marshalls were making ruling based on the past edition of the rules, making the best of what they had, so to speak.

With the advent of the rules manual, they had a chance to clean the whole thing up and therefore override old rules, and rulings I would imagine.

Kind of like if you had a car and the exaust was falling off, you might tie it on with a bit of string, but if you then bought a new car you wouldn't need the string anymore, because you'd more than fixed any problems you had with the old car by getting a new one.

That's the way I see the new rules manual (and I might be seeing it totally wrong). The marshalls had given us enough fixes to use the old rules whilst they were in place, but now they've given us the new manual, which means we don't need any of the old fixes

James.

[Ratty]

The rules manual allows you to check your combat range at any time (p39). The rules for strike say target a model within range. I don't see how this goes against Kels ruling on how Shadowy form works. If you have to target a model within range and know whether a model is in range it's obvious a nightmare within 3" of the Dreamer is not a legal target before the strike even takes place.

[Definitechoice]

You don't have to target a model in range. Reread the Strike Attack Sequence rules, italics for emphasis mine. "Models making a ranged or melee Strike use the Strike Attack Sequence...Once a target in LoS has been declared the target of a Strike, ensure that the target is in range by measuring the distance between the two models...if the distance is shorter than or equal to the attack's Rg, the target is in range; proceed to 2. Strike Duel below. Otherwise, the target is out of range, is not a legal target, and the Strike fails."(p.42)

A Strike doesn't require a legal target, only a target. It will only be successful if it does have a legal target though. A failed Strike, even in melee is permitted by the rules.

While you can measure melee range at any time, there is no other premeasuring, and the rules for declaring a target make no mention of range. For something to be a target, you just need LoS, for there to be no extenuating circumstances, and no Spell/sTalents that prevent targeting. "If all of these factors allow the item to be targeted, then the model can declare that item as the target." Shadowy Form only requires that the Nightmare could be targeted by the action, not that it has to be a legal target and thus in range.

The rules manual allows you to check your combat range at any time (p39). The rules for strike say target a model within range. I don't see how this goes against Kels ruling on how Shadowy form works. If you have to target a model within range and know whether a model is in range it's obvious a nightmare within 3" of the Dreamer is not a legal target before the strike even takes place.

[Justin]

I'm strangely reminded of the moment in Dogma where the plot is revealed about how the Angels would unmake creation by proving God made a mistake.

[K.blas]

I'm with DefinateChoice.

Shadowy Form: this model cannot be targeted by an enemy Action while it is within 3" of a friendly Nightmare that could have been targeted by the Action.

. (Emphasis mine)

So then we look at page 42 of the MRB. Declare target then check range. To declare a target, all you need is LOS to said target. So if you were in your Melee Range of Dreamer, even though you might be "engaged" with only the Dreamer, if one of his Nightmares are within your LOS (and within 3" of Dreamer) TECHNICALLY you could still target his Nightmare (premeasure or not) it's just that you could not actually STRIKE the Nightmare.

So I said that wall of text to say that Ratty and DC you're both right, we just need to look at both parts of the whole.

[K.blas]

I did this in Paint really fast hopefully it explains my (our?) point a bit better.

My opinion is that we're getting hung up over the fact that we can "premeasure" a Melee Strike, but that there is still a Strike Sequence, and it specifically states that we need to:

1) Declare a target (in LOS), and
2) Check range

Since this is the way things are supposed to be, if the Dreamer (take my example above) has any Nightmare within 3" of him(Teddy), and the attacker(Ikiryo 2" away from Teddy so outside of her Melee) can LOS to the Nightmare, then the attack is a failure by Shadowy Form's rule (since she can't actually attack the Teddy, and Dreamer is an illegal target, since she can target but not Strike Teddy).

I think this is what Mr. Sketch was referring to in the other thread about positioning (or having a HT3 Teddy watching Dreamer back...;))

For those that read far, what do you all think?

(Addition; if Teddy was changed to a HT1 Daydream, and it was behind Dreamer, this would whole point would be moot, because it would be out of LOS of Ikiryo, and then she could go to town on Dreamer, since she couldn't legally target the Daydream. )

[Genetic]

From what the rules state i would have to agree with you on this one...

[K.blas]

Just read my post and this...

(Addition; if Teddy was changed to a HT1 Daydream, and it was behind Dreamer, this would whole point would be moot, because it would be out of LOS of Ikiryo, and then she could go to town on Dreamer, since she couldn't legally target the Daydream.)

...Is incorrect because I forgot that Ikiryo was HT3. But I think y'all catch my drift. :P

[Wodschow]

While I agree with your RAW interpretation, I don't think the actual rules haven't been changed in the Manual from when Keltheos made his ruling, thus I believe it's still valid.