Deck stacking

[junkenstein]

I was looking at the Crooked Man's spell "Shafted", and it struck me how much more powerful it could be IF I could "predict" the card Ill draw; so who (or what) will allow me to do this? Ive skimmed the Resi and Outcast sectino and nothing sprang out; is deck manipulation not a Resi trait?

[EricJ]

Deck manipulation is not a Res trait, and likely never will be. The only card mechanics which would be classified as a Res trait would likely be forcing Control Hand Discard and to some degree perhaps manipulations in the Discard Pile.

Hope that helps!

[nerdelemental]

"Deck manipulation" seems more like an Arcanist thing to me. But maybe they'd be "card drawing" ala Rasputina a Surge-like abilities. Could be neat for the future if each faction sort of had their own aspect of manipulating the cards. Neverborn strike me as having a lot of that stuff, too.

Speculation is fun!

[dboeren]

Zoraida is I think the queen of deck stacking at the moment...

[Caronte]

I think that Leviticus can also manipulate the first three cards of the deck (and suffering wounds in the process)

[orius]

Zoraida and Leviticus are the two best at deck control.

I use two crooked men with my Levi list currently :)

[Haight]

I was looking at the Crooked Man's spell "Shafted", and it struck me how much more powerful it could be IF I could "predict" the card Ill draw; so who (or what) will allow me to do this? Ive skimmed the Resi and Outcast sectino and nothing sprang out; is deck manipulation not a Resi trait?


Play leveticus. he can do this via Death's lessons. Takes damage for it, but that's sorta the whole point. He can also hire undead without extra cost.

Death's lessons is one of the reasons i'm interested in Crooked Men for LEve. :)

[sprue]

Actually, there is a way to draw your entire deck, and thus, always cheat with a red joker on every duel

[nilus]

Actually, there is a way to draw your entire deck, and thus, always cheat with a red joker on every duel

Please share

[Haight]

Please share

Seconded. Do tell.

[Werecat]

Indeed, I'm definitely interested. And I'm sure the moment we find out, if it does actually work, it will get an errata within the hour ;)

[Haight]

Indeed, I'm definitely interested. And I'm sure the moment we find out, if it does actually work, it will get an errata within the hour ;)
Probably appropriately too - i'm pretty sure Wyrd didn't intend any infinite mill tricks to consistently pull red joker every flip.


Sorta takes the game out of the game, wouldn't it ?

[paperbag4]

It involves going "Look over there!"

[Werecat]

Or by throwing their newly painte model acrossed the room. Works very well, plenty of time to search that deck for the red joker ;)

[Sobek]

Or by throwing their newly painte model acrossed the room. Works very well, plenty of time to search that deck for the red joker ;)

On the way to the hospital. :santa:

[sprue]

It's a gremlin thing. When a gremlin dies within 6" of Jones or a Whisperer they get to draw 2 cards. Mosquitos can sac a model and summon another mosquito. If you have a mosquito and another model in range you sac the mosquito then the new mosquito sacs the previously activated one and you draw two cards every time that happens. You can do this indefinitely so after a short time you'll have drawn every card. If this is the only thing you've done all round the rest of your force hasn't activated so they now take their actions. In your next duel play the joker. it goes to your discard pile and since you have all your cards in your hand and the only card discarded is a joker that joker becomes the top card of your deck when you start fresh.

Wyrd should could fix this by making larva a (2) action or making it so they can't use the Larva ability if slowed.

[Haight]

It's a gremlin thing. When a gremlin dies within 6" of Jones or a Whisperer they get to draw 2 cards. Mosquitos can sac a model and summon another mosquito. If you have a mosquito and another model in range you sac the mosquito then the new mosquito sacs the previously activated one and you draw two cards every time that happens. You can do this indefinitely so after a short time you'll have drawn every card. If this is the only thing you've done all round the rest of your force hasn't activated so they now take their actions. In your next duel play the joker. it goes to your discard pile and since you have all your cards in your hand and the only card discarded is a joker that joker becomes the top card of your deck when you start fresh.

Wyrd should could fix this by making larva a (2) action or making it so they can't use the Larva ability if slowed.


Hmmm. Haven't checked out the exact wording, but if that works, they need to do something about that. Doesn't seem quite right, though i guess you are still sac'ing one model. Still - sac'ing a three point pig doesn't scream "Get Joker Automatically" in terms of fair trade balance! :D

[nerdelemental]

Wow. That's awesome.

I'm sure it'll stay that way forever, too!

Awwww....too bad there's a stock shortage at my LGS or I'd be buying up tons and tons of pigs and gremlins because of this. ;)

[nilus]

Enjoy that strategy while it lasts, since I doubt it will be around for long.

[LordKnyght]

It's a gremlin thing. When a gremlin dies within 6" of Jones or a Whisperer they get to draw 2 cards. Mosquitos can sac a model and summon another mosquito. If you have a mosquito and another model in range you sac the mosquito then the new mosquito sacs the previously activated one and you draw two cards every time that happens. You can do this indefinitely so after a short time you'll have drawn every card. If this is the only thing you've done all round the rest of your force hasn't activated so they now take their actions. In your next duel play the joker. it goes to your discard pile and since you have all your cards in your hand and the only card discarded is a joker that joker becomes the top card of your deck when you start fresh.

Wyrd should could fix this by making larva a (2) action or making it so they can't use the Larva ability if slowed.

Ok, I have some serious problems with this scheme. From what I've read and re-read, I'm going to break this down for you. Anything I am not 100% sure on, I'll mark in this color to make it stand out. If I 've made a mistake, feel free to correct me.

I'll agree with you on the survival of the fittest (when a GREMLIN model lis killed...) and while it applies to Sommer, the same rule does not apply to the Whisperer (since this isn't an ability of the Whisperer).

When the totem is summoned, it loses 3 health and it must be within 6" of Sommer Plus it's slowed. So it's already down 1 action point. Since Larva is an (all) abiltiy, you are not able to use Swarm the same turn you are summoned. My reasoning is this. On page 44, right collum fourth bullet, it states basically that you can preform an (all) action, however you're not allowed to preform a (0) action. IF this is the case, then you cannot cast since you've already spent an action activating.

Now, here's another point to remember. Even if you were to do this, at the start of the draw phase, you're required to discard down to your maximum hand size and SHUFFLE. Basically, that guarnteed Joker you were looking for at the top of your deck? No longer there. And since Somer is required to have one less control card that means you are already losing that edge you had before.

Like I said, if you see a flaw in what I said, feel free to let me know.

[Draykin]

You are correct sir. Once you have performed an (all) action you can do nothing else untill your next activation. Hence they "ALL" tag. All actions are used to do that one thing.

[sprue]

Lordknyght, the first thing I did when I thought of this was ask in the rules forum if it's possible to use all actions while slowed and the reply was yes it's possible. The wording on all actions states it is the only action you are allowed not that it takes up all your ap. Slow causes you to forfeit 1 ap but this is not an action. You may be confusing it with pass, which is an action. The mention of 0 actions is only to ensure the reader understands that if you use an all action it is the only action taken. And hog whisperers do indeed have survival of the fittest, have another look.

I also understand that you have to discard down to 5 cards, but if you use the mosquito larva tactic before activating the rest of your models then you will have drawn your entire deck and your opponent will have activated all his models before you begin activating the rest of your crew.

Also, I realise that on paper this tactic seems very harsh and unbalanced but it's entirely theoretical and assumes that your opponent has done nothing to try and interrupt you. You'll find in practice that mosquitos are pretty easy to pick off and there are a lot of spells and abilities that do automatic damage and will put a stop to it before it gets out of hand. So there's really no need to complain about it. I'm sure you're all smart enough to identify when this might happen and will have models capable of dealing with it.

[Werecat]

Right... now, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you actually think that this doesn't warrant a nerf...

[sprue]

I don't believe it does no. There are lots of ways to kill mosquitos. Or just add a line in the Larva ability that says you can't do it on the turn you're summoned.

People complain about a problem too easily before looking for a solution. I say this with the best of intentions. It's better to think of a way to overcome a situation than to say that the situation is not fair. The mental exercise will benefit you more and make you a better player.

[Werecat]

You are correct, but there are some things in a game that should never ever ever have the possibility of happening, regardless of how easy or hard it is. I think that this is one of those things. Being able to draw your entire deck is probably not fair.

[LordKnyght]

Lordknyght, the first thing I did when I thought of this was ask in the rules forum if it's possible to use all actions while slowed and the reply was yes it's possible. The wording on all actions states it is the only action you are allowed not that it takes up all your ap. Slow causes you to forfeit 1 ap but this is not an action. You may be confusing it with pass, which is an action. The mention of 0 actions is only to ensure the reader understands that if you use an all action it is the only action taken. And hog whisperers do indeed have survival of the fittest, have another look.

I also understand that you have to discard down to 5 cards, but if you use the mosquito larva tactic before activating the rest of your models then you will have drawn your entire deck and your opponent will have activated all his models before you begin activating the rest of your crew.

Also, I realise that on paper this tactic seems very harsh and unbalanced but it's entirely theoretical and assumes that your opponent has done nothing to try and interrupt you. You'll find in practice that mosquitos are pretty easy to pick off and there are a lot of spells and abilities that do automatic damage and will put a stop to it before it gets out of hand. So there's really no need to complain about it. I'm sure you're all smart enough to identify when this might happen and will have models capable of dealing with it.

Sprue,

Let me start this off by saying I'm not still not convinced, and I'm giving you a chance to convince me. I went back and re-read the Whisperer and I admit I was wrong. So what else is new? http://wyrd-games.net/images/icons/icon10.gif

Now, onto the meat of the matter. The problem is I can see the argument from both sides on the use of (all). Reading the first bullet on that page, it does state the use of (0), (1) and (2) actions. If they ment that all was equal to (2), then they would have used that. Which would mean you could get away with what your suggesting.

However, my thoughts on the idea of (all) is that it's something that requres every speck of your concentration. Only the most powerfull of terms has this identifier attached to it, In my minds eye, if a creature had just been summoned, it would take at least a fraction of a second before it was orientated enough to react to it's new surroundings. Think of it like this. A friend of yours blindfolded you, put you in their car and drove you around for a bit, didn't tell you where you were or where your going. Wouldn't your first action be to get your orientation?

And Sprue, thanks for answering. I always enjoy a good discussion on what if's. LOL

[sprue]

Lordknyght I get what you're saying. When you try and inject realism and common sense into a game then of course what you're saying makes perfect sense provided that an all action does require all your attention and concentration. Since we can't truly know how much focus is required to do this we have to use our imaginations.

I have to disagree with this though. I think the 0,1,2,all denominations are purely a mechanic to give players flexibility and provide some balance to what each model can achieve during its activation. I don't think it has anything to do with how long an action actually takes if we tried to be realistic about it. Some actions have a (0) cost because they want you to use it and not be penalised for it. Some actions have an (all) cost because I'm sure the designers felt that it was too good to use in conjunction with another action (they didn't want us to be able to summon a steampunk abomination immediately after scavenging a scrap counter). It's simply a way to make sure a model can't do too much in one round.

If you look at some actions you'll see what I mean. If leviticus scavenges (an all action) in reality it could take just a moment (because the scraps were right at his feet) or it could take hours (because it was buried under six feet of rubbish) Or let's look at Marcus' stare down ability. It's a (0) action but come on, I think I can smack a person with a stick quicker than it takes to complete a stare down but an attack costs (1) ap. Who can say how long it takes to inject larva inside someone. The time is limited only by what we can imagine. Perhaps larva can be distributed as a topical contact cream (mosquitos might suffer from premature ejaculation) It's really up to you decide. But I'm sure the game designers didn't want mosquitos flying 10" to their host and then performing the larva action, hence the (all).

[Haight]

I definitely agree that you cannot inject realism into rules. Rules are an abstraction to maintain a balance and represent a particular effect or occurrence, and how such things are governed. Essentially almost all rules in a wargame boil down to math.

Furthermore reasoning with "realism" in regards to mechanical mathematical systems in a mechanical system paradigm meant to be an astraction of a game with magic, cyborgs, walking dead zombies, nightmare demon creatures, and all other sorts of stuff is a bit self-defeatist. Your argument holds no water before you even make it. :) The rules don't make mechanical and logical, balanced sense because of a sense of "realism", they make mechanical and logical sense to keep the game from breaking. :)

Any fluff extrapolation is just a reflection of the abstraction the rules represent. :) From another board i frequent, Fluff != Rules. :)


It appears that to me, mechanically, and mathematically, that there is no reason that a Slow figure cannot perform an (all) action.


That said, i hope they change the mosquito trick. To me, balance wise, I don't think any infinite mill trick is a good idea, regardless of ability to interrupt. You should never be able to deploy behind a piece of terrain all the way in the corner and 100% (or rather, very nigh-on so, as it's not exactly 100% guaranteed) assuredly pull the red joker into your control hand.

[Khail]

I'm 100% in agreement with Haight here.

And absolutely "Fluff != Rules". There is no room for intent or "realism" in rules - the rules provide a framework for the game to function within. If they don't do that in an airtight manner, they need to be fixed, not patched with "I think what it means is..." because eventually all you'll have left is patches.

[LordKnyght]

<chuckles> Folks, I have to say thank you. It's been too long since I've last had a good discussion, and it's appreaceated.

As I said before, it's something I can see happening, but to me, it seems "sketchy". It's not something I'd try to pull myself and this entire converstaion is basically moot at this point. At this time, there is nothing that says this isn't legal, however with all games of this nature, there's going to be changes down the road. Will this be one of them? Who knows. If/until this is overturned, I plan to have a few schemes set aside for when I play against this faction.

[Keltheos]

This is being looked at.

But please, continue the engaging discussion. :)

[Dv8guy]

Simply put I thought that an (all) action used all available actions including your 0 action. Is this correct?

A simple fix for this would be to declasify the mosquito as a gremlin. And add Mosquitos to the list of what som'er can take in his list.

[Zee]

Or give Somer a max hand size of 10.

[Keltheos]

Declassifying the mosquito means Jones couldn't hire it any longer.

[Zee]

Or declassify it and add Mosquito to Somer's list.

[nerdelemental]

Declassifying the mosquito means Jones couldn't hire it any longer.


Perfect!

So we're in agreement, then. All in favor?


:top:

[TheBugKing]

Perfect!

So we're in agreement, then. All in favor?


:top:

:ban:

[TheBugKing]

OK a real response.

(All) can be used if the model has not performed any other actions during its activation. If the model is -1 General Ap due to slow it still has not performed any other action. Thus a model that is Slow can perform an (All) action.

[PhoenixEnvy]

Why doesn't the mosquito just have a rule like the arachnids? Arachnids can't swarm up/scatter consecutively, and so mosquitos simply need a rule stating they cannot use or be targeted by Larva if brought onto the table that turn. Wouldn't that solve the problem succinctly without going into tedious abstraction over rules that otherwise work just fine?

[Ken]

What about changing the wording of "larva" from "friendly" model to "friendly non mosquito" model?

I think this could work and be an easily implemented fix.

The tactic would still be there if you want to end up with nothing but mosqitos on the table which wouldn't win you many games being insignificant and all. You would also only be able to draw maybe 10 cards or so before running out of gremlins to sac.

I also think this would fit in fluff wise in that a mosquito wouldn't canabalize another mosquito in order to create a third one.

Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents.

[Sushicaddy]

+1 agree with PheonixEnvy

[sprue]

I think those are both good ideas. I personally think it would be easy to just change it from (all) to (2) The last thing I want to see is a big change to the rules like what happened with the grave robbers.

[LordKnyght]

Hey, watch throwing that change around!

I'm sure that both Sprue and I have given strong arguments for both sides of this case. I'm sure there's an answer coming down the line. And I know for a fact that by turn 3, I'd stop this sillyness in no time with a couple of little tricks from Pandora (yes, I'm a NB player, who wouldda thougtht?). Go ahead and throw down this combo with me if you like, caue when it's all said and done you're gonna end up with some dead bugs, some victory points on my side and and a smirk on my face. http://wyrd-games.net/images/icons/icon10.gif

I'll wait for one of the bosses to give us an answer. Until then, I've got a list made just for this situation and the models on the way.

Now here's a question for the rezzers. does the bug leave a corpse when it's sacked? Cause if it does, this could get nasty REAL quick.

[Ken]

I don't think changing larva from (all) to (2) would do enough to fix the issue, you'd still be able to draw 6 cards a turn without any negative effect.

Som'er's control hand would effectively be 11. Thats every turn your looking at almost a quarter of the deck. Still seems a bit overpowered to me.

[Ken]

Now here's a question for the rezzers. does the bug leave a corpse when it's sacked? Cause if it does, this could get nasty REAL quick.


Nope, a sac'ed model leaves nothing behind.

[sprue]

Drawing lots of cards is a primary feature of the gremlins and its not going to go away by changing the Mosquito's rules. Every faction has it's pluses and this is one for the gremlins. Even Leviticus can draw lots of cards. He gets a hand of 6, draws one when he casts a spell, gets to rearrange his deck, Rusty Alyce give him 2 more, and he can sack the Desolation Engine and draw cards there as well. So I don't think that gremlins are really ahead of everyone in terms of balance.

[sprue]

Lordknyght got me thinking about mosquito reproduction so I researched it and found out that it is the sucking of blood that triggers the start of the reproductive system in female mosquitos. Larva hang around for about two weeks and then become mosquitos about two days after that. Just thought I'd share.

[Ken]

Drawing lots of cards is a primary feature of the gremlins and its not going to go away by changing the Mosquito's rules. Every faction has it's pluses and this is one for the gremlins. Even Leviticus can draw lots of cards. He gets a hand of 6, draws one when he casts a spell, gets to rearrange his deck, Rusty Alyce give him 2 more, and he can sack the Desolation Engine and draw cards there as well. So I don't think that gremlins are really ahead of everyone in terms of balance.

Don't ge me wrong here I love the idea of backwoods hillbilly gremlins showing up at the wrong time to ruin everybodys best laid plans. I picked up the jones box set last week end and have a few more blisters on order. I'm also really looking forward to playing him.

I fully under stand that deck control is one of the attributes that set jones apart from the other masters out there. I just feel that changing larva to a (2) is not quite enough. It still will allow som'er and a savy player too much deck control.

Leviticus has much more situational deck controling tactics. At best, on one turn, can get a hand of 11 or so. That requires him to activate and sac desolation engine and cast a spell or two. With som'er you just need to keep the Mosquitos within 6" and out of threat range. Granted that may be tricky at times but a savy player could do it.

Again just my opinion. :)

[sprue]

Fair enough. I'll report back on how Teeth does this weekend.

Leviticus starts with 6 cards, goes to 8 with alyce. gets two more for casting spells (hopefully he's created some abom's) rearranges his deck and then goes out in a blaze of glory by taking 12 wd from the desolation engine. He's dead now but who cares, he's already activated and he'll be back next round. You now have 22 cards in your hand. Good times :)

[Ken]

Fair enough. I'll report back on how Teeth does this weekend.

Cool, I look forward to hearing how it goes. :)

[Haight]

Why doesn't the mosquito just have a rule like the arachnids? Arachnids can't swarm up/scatter consecutively, and so mosquitos simply need a rule stating they cannot use or be targeted by Larva if brought onto the table that turn. Wouldn't that solve the problem succinctly without going into tedious abstraction over rules that otherwise work just fine?


This would work, but presents just one problem: It creates a rule not on the cards, and thus, if you and your gaming buddies don't visit the forums, you will never know this exists.

It's sometimes necessary in errata, but its NEVER favorable. :) If you can come up with a non-card change that does the same thing with no other negative impact, it's always favorable to do the change that doesn't impact the card.

That said, i'm not sure if its better here to change larva or slow. Changing larva fixes the problem, and modifies nothing else, but makes a card have not have rules on a model anymore.

Changing slow changes a core rule, but doesn't impact any card. It also stops any sort of trick that involves summoning + card generation + all actions from happening in the future.


I'm not sure which is the better answer, honestly (or if there's a better one that i or others haven't dreamt up yet).



The difference of S'omer to Leveticus is that Leveticus (even with 8 point alyce) can't sit on a perfect control hand, and even if he does, when he recycles, he ditches his hand. So even if you use death lessons to ice yourself and you see the joker, you know that joker's going away next turn. Even if its in your hand and you recycle, its going away. :) Leveticus doesn't let you draw your whole deck and sit on it unless your willing to not recycle him - and if you're not recycling leve, why the heck are you playing him ?

Additionally, Leve's recycle is shut down by killing one model - and you effectively have taken the master out of the game. Even if you kill the 'skeeters, jones and crew are still by and large intact. :)

Bit of a difference there, though i can appreciate the comparison.

[newsun]

It is entirely possibly that one would have a large hand full of good cards and have ruined their flips if they have to do negative ones.