What makes Teeth competitive?

[dboeren]

I'm finding myself interesting in running a pig-pack as a secondary army, but I'm having trouble seeing what Teeth really brings to the table. He has a VERY limited selection of models he can field. Any other Outcast Master still has access to the Gremlin and Pig models as well as their normal selection of models.

So what does Teeth have that makes him worth fielding when I could just put the Viktorias (for instance) in charge of the pig-pack instead? I feel that he should be getting significant compensation for not having access to a normal amount of models but I don't see it.

[EricJ]

All the outcast masters have unusual crew selection, and in fact neither Leveticus or Viktoria can take pigs/gremlins due to their rules (Leveticus can only take undead, soulless or constructs, and Viktoria can only take Mercenaries). You are right though, right now Mr. Teeth does have limited selections, but pretty much only him or Zoraida can take those models (and for Zoraida they all cost +1SS). So if you want to run a pig/gremlin pack, you pretty much got to use him.

[WombatCowboy]

He brings pure inbred gremlin awesomesauze.

With better than expected results I've focused on the abilities to summon models. Either gremlins, who promptly die to either watch this or to being beaten. Either way I'm ok with it as I'm just drawing card to use more watch this shots later in the turn, or maybe pumping a warpig into things. It works ok with the warpig being able to use the corpse's the gremlins so aptly make to heal from his ass poking.

It's not pretty, sometimes it fails horribly (ok it fails a lot), but it's very enjoyable to play and can have surprising results. Also Gremlin's luck is really powerful IMO on as an early activation with take a swig to mitigate it a bit.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Flying/Reactivated pigs FTW.

The strategy of poking your Warpig in the tush with the Whisperer then make him & the rest of your piggies fly, only to be called back by Som'er Teeth with "Soooey!" is almost as fast as a pack of Silurids.

[dboeren]

All the outcast masters have unusual crew selection, and in fact neither Leveticus or Viktoria can take pigs/gremlins due to their rules (Leveticus can only take undead, soulless or constructs, and Viktoria can only take Mercenaries).

OK, I knew that Leviticus had restrictions (although fairly minor ones), I didn't notice that Viktoria did as well. And it also turns out that pigs aren't Beasts so Marcus can't take them either. That still puts Viktoria at 9, Teeth at 4, and Leviticus way up there and likely to grow quickly.

Anyway, I'm still planning what to get with my initial order. I'll probably pick up Teeth anyway just because he looks like fun but I won't necessarily expect him to perform that well. Maybe after there are a wider variety of Gremlin and Pig models out there (and Mosquitoes....)

[EricJ]

I can say with some assurance that in the future, there will be more gremlin options :D

Although he will likely always be the master with the least choice overall

[MEdwards]

I should be playing my second game with Gremlins this Friday and hope to put some of my observations to practice. I think my goal is going to be to cycle through my minis by using their ability to turn Gremlins into Piglets and Piglets into Gremlins to my advantage to do what I can to keep a healthy swarm on the board as long as possible. Also, I think Gremlins will change for the good once skeeters are released and you have a swarm of them out there farting all over the place.

[AoM]

Sure, the pigs are able to kick some serious ass when it comes to damage, but think about what it's like when you've got 12 Gremlins running around on the table. Sure, they can all get damaged pretty easily, but they're going to take someone out with them. And if you've got a strategy that involves having more models somewhere than your opponent, this is one of the prime swarms, especially since you can summon more. Only the Mindless Zombie technique can rival this one.

Besides, why does a model have to be absolutely brutal in a tournament setting for people to want to play with it? Teeth is fun, 'nuff said. The gremlins were just too awesome to leave as minions for Zoraida, so they got their own sub-faction. They play exactly like you'd expect models to play that are back woods pig farmers who make their own hooch.

Flying pigs and some mosquitoes just make the list even funnier, and give it some oomph. I've resisted the urge to complete my Gremlin crew so far, but I don't think I'll be able to hold out when more Gremlins come along.

[royal]

Teeth is one of those masters I really want to play. I got the box and everything. Need to get the pig whisperer looks like he is a must if you want some truely fun stuff to happen. As for competative who cares I am having too much fun with casual games and if this keeps up these guys will make it to the table soon enough

[dboeren]

I'm not looking for Teeth to be a grand champion tournament winner, I'm just curious whether he holds his own or if he's going to lose most of the time. All I really want is for him to be fun to play and give me a fair shot.

Anyway, I'll probably try him out soon in a proxy game and see how things go.

[TheLemondropDan]

He's decent. The warpig is a pretty good bargain for what you get, and you can get some amazing results with stampede. They are pretty darn tricky to play well, though. What you really get from Teeth is the ability to heal and summon as much as you please, and don't underestimate "pull my finger", either. The damage isn't optional. It can also be devastating with a load of mosquitoes.

I like two kinds of lists: Warpig/Whisperer stampede lists and Gremlin/Mosquito recursion lists.

[Aproximo]

[quote=Angel_of_Menoth;90248]
Besides, why does a model have to be absolutely brutal in a tournament setting for people to want to play with it? Teeth is fun, 'nuff said. The gremlins were just too awesome to leave as minions for Zoraida, so they got their own sub-faction. They play exactly like you'd expect models to play that are back woods pig farmers who make their own hooch.
quote]

I didn't even make it through this whole thread before I came across this. Angel, you have got it so right! My main playing partner/oponent is planning a gremlin army. Last night without enough built or on hand we were pretty much just sitting around looking at the different things you can do with a sommer army. We both agreed that a gremlin/pig army was going to be pretty unpredictable. Some days you get the bear and some days the bear gets you. I was getting pretty jealous of the fun playing a gremlin army is going to be. Certainly wouldn't bring it to a tournement I wanted to win but for fun I cannot think of a better choice.

There is so much weird stuff in that crew that while defete may be painful and common, wins will be the stuff of epic stories. And I suspect wins will be as common and losses. "remember the game when this guy called in his brother and got eaten, restored the pig back to full health and he wiped out half your crew..."

[nilus]

The best game of Malifaux I have played so far was against Gremlins(see WEiRD sKeTCHs awesome write up about it in the battle report thread). Teeths ability to heal without stones makes him very survivalable. And the unpredictableness of his army can foul up your oppenets plans just as easily as your own. I can see why he might not be the first choice for hard core competive tourney play but I can still see less serious players bringing and having fun with him in tourneys.

[Sobek]

Just one recommendation when fielding the Gremlins. Always play a scenario/scheme. Gremlins don't really do very well in a 'meatgrinder' type of game. They need some objectives that they can use their tricksiness on to win.

[dboeren]

Thanks guys, that's more of the sort of information I was looking for. Healing is definitely a bonus (especially since he doesn't get a cache of soulstones). I'm more interested in the Warpig/Whisperer lists but I could throw some Mosquitos in there. I'm less interested in Gremlin swarms but we'll see when more Gremlins come out and you can always use a couple of them even if you don't take that many.

[AoM]

With Warpigs and skeeters, Teeth can hurt you something fierce. And you and your opponent both get to laugh when it's happening.

Besides, there's no other master with anything nearly as cool as "Pull My Finger."

[hannibal]

I just wish Zoraida could take them without paying the +1ss cost. I was really contemplating a Zoraida-Gremlin horde. :disappoin

[AoM]

They're still only 3 stones for Zoraida. that's not bad.

[hannibal]

I dunno, it just seems the nominal cost is too high. You now get 2 gremlins for the cost of 3. Paying 1 extra SS for a pig or even a hog whisperer makes sense. But for a regular gremlin, I don't think so. And if you did, it would be more to have bid-macs for the pigs than to try a gremlin swarm.

[Aproximo]

isn't the point of having gremlins in a pig force the "Big Mac" option? You don't need many if your not swarming. They multiply... Even if they can't count...

Field one, and have him call in another, there is no rule about how many points they have to have to heal. They only come for lunch anyway! Pay the 3 points and have a dozen of them by the time your done.

[hannibal]

They can't multiply with Som'er Teeth. With a Zoraida force, you don't have "Git yer Bro."

I dunno, I figured the boomstick would be fun to run 8-10 times...

[dboeren]

I dunno, it just seems the nominal cost is too high. You now get 2 gremlins for the cost of 3. Paying 1 extra SS for a pig or even a hog whisperer makes sense. But for a regular gremlin, I don't think so.

I tend to agree, it's a fixed cost and not a percentage. +1 point on an 8-9 point model is a fairly negligible "faction tax". +1 point on a 2 point model (especially one you might want to field multiples of) is a pretty big premium that you're paying. If my Zoraida wanted to run a Gremlin force I'd stick to Warpigs and maybe one Whisperer, or else play a 2-Master Brawl with Teeth.

[sprue]

Here's what you need Dboeren. Three hog whisperers and a gremlin.
1. Teeth uses get yer bro to make two gremlins
2. Teeth uses two AP to kill those two gremlins. Cheat fate if you must to summon piglets and of course discard the bad cards in your control hand.
3. Whisperers in range will let you draw 2 cards each. 2 dead gremlins means they each draw 4 cards.

You just drew 1/4 of your deck meaning you probably have more high value cards than your opponent so you are likely to win nearly every duel you play.

Combine this with spells like "flip for it" to increase your chances of winning.

Throw in some mozzies to use Teeths spells to make more gremlins or make your opponent discard control cards. You just suck the blood from new born piglets and then cast gremlins luck.

That's what he brings to the table. Victory

[Haight]

This is a random side note, but I can't help but laugh every time I read "Stick 'em Tha Ass". I adopt a redneck, hillbillie inflection every time i say it.


If i ever do gremlins, i'm mod'ing them all to have wheat stalks sticking out of their mouthes, and labeling each base with names like "Skeeter" and "Cletus". :D

[Sobek]

3. Whisperers in range will let you draw 2 cards each. 2 dead gremlins means they each draw 4 cards.

Wait... You Draw two cards for every model you have with that ability? I was only drawing two period, regardless of how many with the ability (Som'er Teeth and/or Whisperers) I had in range. So I've been shortchanging myself cards?

[TheBugKing]

Wait... You Draw two cards for every model you have with that ability? I was only drawing two period, regardless of how many with the ability (Som'er Teeth and/or Whisperers) I had in range. So I've been shortchanging myself cards?

Yes.

[dboeren]

Sounds pretty good, I'll have to test this out.

[n0signal]

This has been an interesting thread to read, as I decided (perhaps foolishly) to pick up Som'er Teeth's box set as my initial Malifaux crew; mainly because I loved the flavour and aesthetics of the models and because they sounded fun to play. Of course, then I've read all over the place that they'll get "LOL-PWNED" by some of the other Crew boxes and I was getting a little anxious.

Anyhoo, the list I'm gonna probably be starting with, to get me up to 25SS (so that I can play a decent game against my friend's Ortega box) is the following:

- Som'er Teeth Jones
- Bayou Gremlin
- Bayou Gremlin
- Hog Whisperer
- Warpig
- Piglet
- Piglet

This leaves me with 2SS for the game, the same as Perdita's cache. Is this list any good? It'll leave me three Gremlins (due to a mispack) and two Piglets off the board to bring on with spells/triggers/whatever. ^_^

[sprue]

I'd drop the piglets and take another hog whisperer. On the first turn you can make two piglets out of one gremlin and then turn one piglet back into a gremlin with the whisperer if you really want one. I think piglets and warpigs are the way to go because your whisperers can heal them so you can take advantage of reckless fast, but gremlins are good as well since you can kill them and draw cards.

Also you can squeeze in a mozzie. I think it's really important that you force your opponent to discard his control cards. Gremlins have fairly low stats so you want to be able to cheat fate but keep your opponent from cheating as well.

[tor gaming]

Outstanding thread.

I think you guys have just persuaded me to do Gremlins for my first faction.

[n0signal]

I think you guys have just persuaded me to do Gremlins for my first faction.
I've just bought a load of Gremlin stuff off you, so you might be down some stock there. LOL. Great service at Tor BTW!! :D

[tor gaming]

lol, indeed, we are pretty much down to singles of most things now.

Thanks for your kind words on our service, we aim to please.

[sprue]

Here's a 35ss list I came up with based on what the gremlins do best

Som'er Teeth Jones
3 hog whisperers
warpig
2 giant mosquitos
3 bayou gremlins

This list does a few things very well in theory and I plan to test it soon. Basically with mozzies, gremlins, hog whisperers, and Jones I can turn the miniatures at my disposal into other miniatures. Each time this happens a miniature usually dies or gets sacrificed and if this is done within range of Jones or a Whisperer (as long as it's a gremlin) I get to draw cards.

So I can make more gremlins, and as I posted earlier it allows me to draw a huge amount of cards.
Another benefit of a gremlins list is the ability to stall and make your opponent activate his models first, allowing you to react to his actions. This is really useful in the first 3 turns of the game as models are still trying to close in and being able to see what the enemy does before you go is really advantageous. Do this by sacrificing one mozzie with the larva ability of another mozzie. Not much is lost by doing this (one is now slow) and it then goes back to your opponent to activate one of his miniatures. Additionally, if your mosquito was sacked in range of Jones or a Whisperer then you just got to draw 2 cards.

Mosquitos can go back and fourth sacrificing each other all day long and if you keep drawing cards you'll soon end up with your entire deck being drawn. But best of all, your opponent has activated his entire force (unless they can do something similar) and you can now start picking off enemies.

I need to brag about mosquitos some more. They're nasty pieces of work. You can also use the larva rule to move your summoned mosquitos about the table within range of each other and leap frog around the board an infinite number of times. It all comes to an end when you get within range of an enemy model and cast parasitic infection with the help of your massive control hand. A new mosquito has been summoned and the process continues unless your opponent plays a high card from their hand. I think it will almost never be the case, but in the right situation, (op. has no high cards) you can go around the entire board killing off the enemy. Again, the chances of that happening are very slim and using mosquitos this way will probably earn you a slap in the face.

Jones' Luck spell also aids our feeble gremlins by forcing the opponent to discard cards. Cast through some mosquitos your opponent will soon have no hand at all. When combined with other gremlin features you end up with a crew that can grow in numbers, cross the board quickly, consistently cheat fate with high value cards, drastically reduce opponent's control hand, and keep models healthy with healing flips. Maybe they can't do all those things at once but it allows a great amount of flexibility.

My question to all of you is what tactics and models would you use to beat this crew given that you might only have a few if any control cards and that I could cheat fate with a card valued at 11 or better every time.

[orius]

how do mosquitos allow card draws? i thought it was only dead gremlins?

[sprue]

mosquitos are gremlins!

[orius]

mosquitos are gremlins!


oh the other thing larva is an all action, you cant do it with a summon sickness model.

sorry bro.

[sprue]

slow is not an action. All actions are the only action you are allowed to take, they don't have an ap cost associated with them.

[orius]

no i think your taking advantage of a rule.

All is suppose to be all including 0 actions which means by the letter it would take both, ie 2, general actions and a 0

using a technicallity on a summon is not in the spirit of the rule and i am sure...so very sure it will be erratted!

so i personally hope your not actually trying to play people using that "loop hole"

[sprue]

I've already asked about it in the rules section and it is allowed.

The rules very clearly state what an all action requires and what is not allowed. Nowhere does it say that a model must have more than one ap, only that an all action is the only action the model is allowed to perform. The reference to 0 actions is only there to make sure the reader understands that an action that costs no ap is still an action and therefore not allowed with an all action.

It is neither a loophole nor a technicality. The reasoning behind an all action is to make sure that certain actions cannot be used in conjunction with other actions which might have been obtained by a model's abilities or spell effects from other models. i.e., they don't want it to be combined with things like fast, melee expert,casting expert, or any other effect that offers extra ap. So based on these examples I have to say that it is not in conflict with the spirit of the rule.

I'd also appreciate it if you didn't question my integrity. Some people simply interpret the rules differently than you. I invite you to visit the rules forum and have your say on the matter. I do feel that rules should be based on the direct interpretation of printed rules and not drawn conclusions so until an errata is produced which changes the rule the rule will stand.

I also want to reiterate that this is not a game breaking manoeuvre. Mosquitos can easily be pushed out of range of their target or killed (bete noire is an excellent way to stop this). There is no shortage of powerful and effective models available to all factions. It's up to each player to recruit wisely and play with cunning if they want to win.

[n0signal]

Eek, lets not get the poor Gremlins errata'd before they've even got going! LOL. They're already considered to be a bit "underpowered"; I'm having my fist little test game with them this weekend tho so I will see for myself. Either way, they seem very fun to play, which is what I'm mainly after. ;)

EDIT: On a side note, I was sticking my War Pig together last night and noticed that inside the model it is written: "Pork Chop Express" and underneath "Squeal like a pig!" It's little touches like this that make Wyrd such an awesome company. :D

[PhoenixEnvy]

Sprue - While I don't see a need to question your integrity, or your interpretation of the way the rules are written, I would appeal to you to see the possibility that drawing your entire deck into your hand and moving two models with infinite activation and movement is not an intended feature. I encourage you to enjoy this until erratad, if you can do so without making your opponents miserable, which seems unlikely. While it may be legal, and may even be in the 'spirit of the rule', which is a bit of nonsense really whenever anyone uses that term, it is most assuredly not in good sports, and this is clear if you take a moment to consider the impact it will have on your opponent's playing of the game.

[sprue]

I've discussed it with a friend and I think the consensus is that it's pretty easy to kill one of the mosquitos and end the process. Once models close in with the enemy it's very likely that they will be killed before you draw much of your deck. We'll be testing it this weekend. I started writing a list of ways each faction can deal with mosquitos before they get out of hand but it got too long and I decided it doesn't need posting. Each faction has several ways to kill a mosquito once they've closed in (or in bete noire's case at any time) If you haven't closed in with your opponent then who cares if your opponent can draw a million cards. All the gremlin's spells will succeed but they won't be in range to do anything offensive to you and then the gremlin player has to discard all his cards and start over next round.

As far as my opponents' feelings are concerned, I have every faith that they will be able to deal with this tactic and provide a challenging and enjoyable game as everyone I've encountered thus far at our club is extremely intelligent and very experienced.

[WombatCowboy]

I think it's crazy you thought of this. I dont have my book handy (someone borrowed it ><) but if mozzies are gremlins than I dont see how playing this tactic can be competitive for some casters at all. Why wouldn't you just hide out of los wasting initiatives drawing your deck, once you get the red joker or the 13 (can't member the suit) and your opponent is out of activations chain mozzies to their caster and use the insta kill?

Ryan

BTW the totem you made was awesome!!

[amikulaschek]

Sprue,

All I have to say is BRILLIANT! I love it. And this strategy is not really using ANY loopholes at all. Everything is straght forward in the rulebook.

1. Mosquitoes are Gremlins
2. (all) Larva can summon an additional mosquito while sacrificing a friendly model (ie. a mosquito)
3. Survival of the fittest gives you 2 cards per sacrificed gremlin
4. A summoned model can activate the turn it is summoned
5. An (all) action can be used with a Slow action modifier

It's quiet the card-generating-move-all-over-the-board engine. Well done.

Now I'm not going to address the "spirit" or "intent" of the rules. Eric and his crew of testers/rules designers have used VERY specific language for this game (more so than any other game I've played in a long time), and this is too big to be just a loophole. They are either sitting in their rule designers forum saying "hey they figured it out" or they are saying "&%$#% how'd we miss that!?!"

[cain]

Even the hungry rule will not prevent it as i first thought.

So i expect just a simple "Mosquitos are NOT gremlins" errata and everything is fine.
At least the card generating machine. The insect is still going anywhere it want to.
So as a second, change larva from (all) to (2) action and this crazy idea is gone completely.

[Haight]

Sprue,

Now I'm not going to address the "spirit" or "intent" of the rules. Eric and his crew of testers/rules designers have used VERY specific language for this game (more so than any other game I've played in a long time), and this is too big to be just a loophole. They are either sitting in their rule designers forum saying "hey they figured it out" or they are saying "&%$#% how'd we miss that!?!"


Except that the combo is being looked at by development, per the thread "deck stacking" in the Ress'er section. Keltheos let the people talking about it in that thread know that the situation was being "looked into", but to continue conversation.

If this was 100% intended (and i'm not saying its going to get errata'd, though i'm betting there's a higher likelihood than not), they would have come out and said "no, this is meant to work this way".

That the "situation is being looked into" suggests to me that it may have been an unforseen situation, and that they are now evaluating the following -

1) if it works (pretty damn ironclad it does)

2) if it works as presented (again, pretty damn ironclad it does)

3) if its a balance issue

4) if its what they intended the models to do:

4a) If no, path of least resistance to keep intent of model design integral while stopping the balance issue with minimal disturbance to design intent. This could present many issues, some of which are not attractive (errata'ing something that wouldn't appear on the cards, which is never good in mini's games with game aids, errata'ing something to work a different way, etc - many options here), issuing that clarification.

4b) If yes, issuing that clarification.




My guess is that its currently being investigated by some people, and possibly even playtested out by some peeps.


No matter how hard you playtest something, the second you release it to the public, you subject it to more eyes and hands that will put every possible combination of things together in ways you never imagined - moreso than any group of playtesters can even in the longest design cycle. It's just the nature of playtest. :)

[n0signal]

Well, if they do decide to errata this then you'd also need to change Jones so that he can hire something else besides just 'Gremlins and Pigs' (maybe add 'Mosquito' to his list). That's the only reason the Mosquito has the 'Gremlin' attribute; otherwise it would be a 'Pig' and you could have other crazy shenanigans with it. :rolleyes:

[nilus]

No matter how hard you playtest something, the second you release it to the public, you subject it to more eyes and hands that will put every possible combination of things together in ways you never imagined - moreso than any group of playtesters can even in the longest design cycle. It's just the nature of playtest. :)

Yep, no matter how much you test something, Someone will still find a way to break it.

[Ratsmitglied]

there are two possible simple fixes that I can see that would solve the problem without needing to change the mosquito from being a gremlin

1) Errata the summoning rules to state that 'Summoned models may not take an (all) action on the turn they are summoned)
2) Change the Larvae rules to state that 'this ability may not be used on the turn the model is summoned'.

I think that the first option is the easiest to implement, and a quick check of the rules suggests that none of the figures that are rely on summoning to get to the table have an (all) action, so I can't see there being any significant issues with doing this. I also think that this is supported by the fact that a model receives slow on the turn that it arrives, suggesting that the arrival counts as one of the models AP for the turn.

[sprue]

If they errata it I won't be too disappointed. Though as I've said before, I really don't think it breaks the game. I do hope though that they play test it very thoroughly. I'm playing a game this weekend and I'll be testing it myself so I'll let you know how it goes.

[dboeren]

Gamebreaking or not, it sounds to me like the sort of thing that's quite likely to get errataed. Even if it's not broken today, infinite combos are tricky things and all it might take is one new model to suddenly turn it into an "I win" button. It would be best to correct it now before a problem happens.

[orius]

if you can do an infinate loop action it breaks the game

if you can draw a significant portion of your deck with 2 little 2 pt models with no negative draw back it breaks the game, and this lets you draw the whol dang thing...

I understand you found something cool, but if you seriously think this is as intended...well i dont know what to say, but im sorry but it isnt.

Grelins can draw tons of cards i mean if you have somer and multiple pig whispers in range you draw two for each model in range, which is already a ton of cards. You can cycle throught hem even by turning them into pigs! i am preatty sure that counts to get cards as well...

anyways, I am glad you spoke with your friends and didnt blind side them with this tactic, that is in good sportsmanlike conduct and thats all that matters is having fun, all together.

[sprue]

Try it out. See how many cards you can draw before your opponent kills one of the mosquitos. With bete noire your opponent will be able to summon only one mosquito. With other factions, any master will be able to use a soul stone to spray the landscape with mozzie guts. It seems woefully overpowered when you think about it but when you get down to it it's not hard for a good player to handle. A lot of people have already come up with a contingency plan to handle this.

[cain]

Try it out. See how many cards you can draw before your opponent kills one of the mosquitos. All cards. Just spawn circle the insects around until your opponent runs out of activations.
Block the LOS with gremlins, but who will reach your deploymentzone in the first turn anyway? Even vs Bete Noir you can have 4 mosquitos at the start, so loosing one by her is nothing to care about.

Before starting the spawn to the opponents master. After the master is transformed into a new mosquito, continue the spawn walking until you find another target. Because you never run out of new mosquitoes and you always have one left and one new. Opponent will loose most of his figures until you run out of cards. Or he can block one attack by his first card hand if hes lucky. Just avoid slow to die models.
But would you run out of cards anyway? You need a red joker or the crow 13 to success. But because you always activate mosquitoes you still have gremlins left to activate (and to kill them).
Man i get to draw 2 cards. Again. Look its the red joker and the crow 13 i just used. What surprise because all other cards are in my hand.

So thats not a fair game and there have to be an errata somehow.

[gru6y]

Its a sick combo and congrats, Sprue, for thinking of it.
Nevertheless, I would never want to play against a crew utilizing it. I would also not play it myself either.
Its a CCG style combo. One of a 'ok, now that I have my combo on the table, you can watch, and I will win' kind which would maybe make sense in proffessional play, but would instantly mess up any friendly game.

I can't see it not being erratad.

[Haight]

All cards. Just spawn circle the insects around until your opponent runs out of activations.
Block the LOS with gremlins, but who will reach your deploymentzone in the first turn anyway? Even vs Bete Noir you can have 4 mosquitos at the start, so loosing one by her is nothing to care about.




But, see that's the whole point - a game is not balanced if i MUST take something to shut down a combo you MAY bring. :) See the distinction ? If this lets your resource pool in a resource oriented game go infinite (or as infinite as possible in the parameters of the game), that's a bad thing for game balance.

Despite that there may be one or two counters that shut it down, the fact remains that there is a question if an infinite mill trick is something that was intended against "Lists not containing Bete Noire or possibly Killjoy".



The more i think about this the more i think the answer may be errata'ing (all actions) to state that a model must have more than one action to perform them, or to errata slow to state that slow models cannot perform (all actions).

It's intuitive, it's clean, and it doesn't go changing anything on any cards (a + in my book). I couldn't necessarily see any downsides - could anyone else ?


I'll say this Sprue, you've got an eye for finding cute chinks in the armor of balance. :) Even if your trick gets errata'd you can take comfort in the fact that you spotted something that will eventually contribute to making the game better.... and if it doesn't get errata'd... well, color me buying S'omer Teef. :D

[sprue]

Cain if you try to use parasitic infection on a master it's going to fail. The best result a mosquito can muster is 18 (ca2 + 14 from joker + 2 from reckless abandon) most likely it will be a 16 as the mosquito won't be in range of the reckless abandon aura. A master's average df is around 4 + they can cheat fate so lets say 10 + use soulstones. So the mosquito will probably fail and that ends the infinite activation. Additionally, there are lots of models with a df of 6 or 7 so they will have an easy time beating a 16 as well. Guild players can use Perdita as well. I seriously spent over an hour the other night typing up a list of tactics each faction can use to kill the mosquitos and I eventually got fed up with it because after an hour I'd only finished with the Guild, Res, and Arcanists. Every faction has plenty of tricks.

I'd like to see what your thoughts are after you've tried playing against a gremlin army that uses this tactic. Play a few games and see how it goes. Real games are going to be much more telling than a hypothetical scenario.

[n0signal]

The more i think about this the more i think the answer may be... to errata slow to state that slow models cannot perform (all actions).

It's intuitive, it's clean, and it doesn't go changing anything on any cards (a + in my book). I couldn't necessarily see any downsides - could anyone else ?

This gets my vote!! +1

[cain]

I'd like to see what your thoughts are after you've tried playing against a gremlin army that uses this tactic.

I would not play against someone with this.

The possibility alone to get an infinite play turn shows the problem. Technically your opponent can play the spawn larva game until you ran out of activations. This is already dumb.

If he want he can play it 1 hour. Or 2. There is no end. You are just standing there and have to wait until he is done with his turn. May sound dumb but nevertheless you had to. Technically. Normally you would kick him into somewhere after some spawns.

So it doesnt work. There is no I can handle that. Or You can counter it easily. Or the master is safe. There are masters without soulstones remember. Or low def. Or bad hand cards. Or you just kill the rest of the crew. Doesnt matter.

Its just a way to break a fun game.
So dont bother with, just wait for an errata.

[sprue]

Cain, I'm not trying to be rude, but I can't understand why you'd throw in the towel or refuse to even attempt to try and beat this list. What would your opinion of Rocky be if he refused to train and fight Apollo? What would have happened if Frodo never left the Shire or George Washington said "I've lost too many battles, I don't want to be a general any more"

Please try for the sake of trying, and do your best.

[WombatCowboy]

As outcasts we can take the you didn't get your objective so we get some vp's. Than i take an infinitely long turn until time in the event runs out...Pretty lame.

It's broken, I admire the rocky analogy and the feverishness your defending your broken combo but it's not conducive to making people want to play you.

I'm hopeful the fix this sooner than later.

[sprue]

I'm sure most tournament organisers will have a problem with stalling. If you're going to put time limits on things then there has to be a rule for that as you can stall without infinite activations since time limits aren't part of the rules in the first place. That's just bad form.

I've never been to any tournament or friendly gathering and had someone say they don't want to play me. If you look at the opposite side of the coin, people who are willing to accept a defeatist's mentality are not rising to a challenge and their not bettering themselves. You can't increase your skill to the point where you can beat a skilled opponent if you're not willing to play that opponent in the first place.

I'm not pointing any fingers I'm just trying to put forth the idea. It's always better to challenge yourself, to see if you can get out of a difficult situation. You may loose a few times but we all do when we're learning. If don't try, you can't learn.

If I had never mentioned the mosquito tactic in the forum, we'd never have the opportunity to try to figure out how to beat it.

[Werecat]

But what's more important? Bettering yourself, or having fun? I choose having fun, and infinite card combos do not foster fun. I'm still strongly seated in the opinion that it needs to be changed.

[sprue]

Start making terrain with multi level surfaces. Buildings, train platforms, ravines, large hills, bridges, etc. This will give you safe zones that will make it impossible for mosquitos to get everywhere on a battlefield with summoning.

Then of course you have Hamelin the rat catcher. He's mosquito proof and can cast obey

[Werecat]

Lol...

That's the key everyone! The best way to beat the infinite mosquito combo is to build more complicated terrain! Genious!

I'm sorry man, but you're living in denial. Just let it go. It's not fair, and it's not going to stay.

[Dv8guy]

I have a question about thi infinite mosquito/draw your whole deck concept. If you have no card in your deck you cannot make an initial flip to cheat in a card so won't all of your actions automaticly fail?

[goblyn13]

I have a question about thi infinite mosquito/draw your whole deck concept. If you have no card in your deck you cannot make an initial flip to cheat in a card so won't all of your actions automaticly fail?

Nope, rules say when you run out of cards during your turn, but before the end phase you pick up your discard pile and shuffle and that's your new deck (just don't draw new control cards) (Malifaux book Pg 34)

[WombatCowboy]

I have a question about thi infinite mosquito/draw your whole deck concept. If you have no card in your deck you cannot make an initial flip to cheat in a card so won't all of your actions automaticly fail?
Your right in that he'd have to try and cast something to get at least one card into the discard pile before he drew the rest out.

[sprue]

Well, you wouldn't make an initial flip because you can't, you'd have to go straight to the cheating fate part.

I don't mind your sass werecat but it doesn't do you any favours. I think I've said my piece and I'll leave it at that. You're either willing to take on a challenge or you want to bring the game down to a level you're comfortable with. People say that I won't have opponents who will want to play me, but on the other hand, I enjoy challenges so if someone doesn't want to provide that, then I won't enjoy the game much either. Maybe I won't want to play them because they lack the willingness to find solutions in what's meant to be a strategic game.

Having fun is all about your attitude. You can have fun if you want to.

[Sobek]

Well, you wouldn't make an initial flip because you can't, you'd have to go straight to the cheating fate part.

I don't mind your sass werecat but it doesn't do you any favours. I think I've said my piece and I'll leave it at that. You're either willing to take on a challenge or you want to bring the game down to a level you're comfortable with. People say that I won't have opponents who will want to play me, but on the other hand, I enjoy challenges so if someone doesn't want to provide that, then I won't enjoy the game much either. Maybe I won't want to play them because they lack the willingness to find solutions in what's meant to be a strategic game.

Having fun is all about your attitude. You can have fun if you want to.

Actually, unless I'm mistaken, you couldn't even cheat fate. Cheating Fate replaces the card in play. If your deck is empty, and you couldn't flip any card, there'd be no card for you to replace.

As for this 'tactic', I wouldn't want to play against it. It's taking advantage of an obvious exploit of a loophole in the rules. That much should be obvious to everyone. The rules may allow for it, but infinite combos like this always go against the 'spirit of the rules' in any game I've ever played.

I'm all for tactical challenges, but dealing with this isn't a tactical challenge. It's a 10+ minute waste of time for you while your opponent basically plays solitaire with his fate deck. I personally don't find that very fun. If you really want to play this 'tactic', that's fine. Just don't be upset when people pick up their models and go start a game with someone who will actually play the game against them, not play through their own cards while you're standing there twiddling your thumbs.

Having fun is about your attitude, yes. But you have to think about whether it's fun for your opponent. What's more important: Winning? Or a game were both players have fun?

[Haight]

Hyperbole about fun vs. competitive, and invoking real life and fictional military figures aside, the problem with an infinite mill trick in a card game is one of unilateral access.

If everyone has access to an infinite mill, fine, no problem, as its a unilateral resource on an equal basis. The problem with this is that there are at least two mechanical tiers of unequal unilateral access.

The first is that to even hire more than 1 mosquito, a crew must hire S'omer. This means that unless you are playing S'omer outcasts, or a brawl with S'omer in a master slot, you cannot pull this trick. More definitively, if you are not playing S'omer, you cannot pull this resource trick in a scrap. That's the big one. Lack of unilateral resource generation / mill on an infinite scale, in a severely limited scope of access, is a problem.

Look at magic the gathering. While i no longer play (haven't for a while), there are many infinite mill tricks - some good, some bad. A player, when sitting down to play a game of magic has the same unilateral access to cards to put into his deck that his opponent does. It's not as if he puts a single "red" card into his deck, and this then immediately closes him off from the infinite generation trick. It may make it harder if he puts "red" (and i'm plucking that out of thin air, i'm years behind the times in magic, it may be easy or hard for red to do mill, i have no clue - substitute peuce, white, chartreuse, or tartan if you like), but it's still possible because of the rule of unilateral access.

In this instance, the moment you take a master other than S'omer, you close yourself off from this trick. That right there violates the law of infinite generation = unilateral access. In a resource game that has a sliding scale of worth in a positive and negative fashion, with a finite amount of resources, infinite draw power of that resource for one of 15 masters currently is not balanced.

2) This trick can be pulled while you hang out behind terrain, and barring few exceptions (lilith being the main one i can think of with nephilim and Waldgeists), there is very little most crews can do about this before you get going, land a joker in your hand (along with tons of 10+ cards), and are in a position to probably auto-fail duel someone, and then hit them up with severe effects. Particularly given Jones' Boomer double damage that can solitaire the vast majority of models in the game (those with 10 wounds lacking armor or hard to kill), this presents a pretty big dilemma in terms of balance.

So against many masters this one now has unequal access to resource generation (which is finite, unlike magic, to continue that analogy of game design, though magic has a mill lose condition and mana burn damage condition built in). He now is in a position where against many masters there is nothing you can do on the first turn to really prevent you from getting the optimal hand of cards.

The big problem here is one of threat ranges and terrain. If you have a piece of terrain on your side of the board, towards your deployment, you can hide there, and pull the trick, with most models being arguable out of threat range to you turn one (and threat ranges that don't pull first turn "before you go" kills are good in an alt activation game). Again, Lilith might be an exception due to fast moving models and transposition, but that's really entering into the board position and deployment more than mechanical strength or weakness.

3) Finally, I have a hard time believing that the core game design in a finite but regenerative resource management based game, that it is an inborn design intent to have any one master be able to mill-draw a perfect hand nearly without fail as long as you turtle a bit turn one, leaving you with a disgusting draw hand to pull the rest of the master's already impressive list of tricks.



BUT ... i may be wrong. I think only nathan and ericJ and some others know the answer. I'll say this - game design wise, it's unfathomable to me to let this stand, as it would compromise too many core game design elements of a resource management game like this. The rules are pretty clean and intuitive and Wyrd has shown a pattern so far of stopping upwardly scaling shenanigans so far, so i'll be surprised if it stands.

I probably wouldn't quit if someone wants to pull this until (if) it changes, but if it weren't a tournament, i'd very nicely ask them not to play it twice in a row. If they refused, i'd probably say "good game, nice combo" and then try to find another opponent, and do my best over the following week to think up a counter-combo that could potentially shut it down.

To quote a fellow gamer buddy of mine that i respect highly: The goal is to win, the objective is to have fun. While killer combos don't rob your opponent of fun (because honestly, who of us wants to win all the time?), there is a difference between a killer combo and a clear and present unintentional rules interaction that places the very bedrock fabric of the game's (finite but repeating chance driven resource management) balance into a precariously questionable position.

I'm not, but if i were, a developer of Wyrd, i'd be investigating ways of looking to keep mosquitos doing what i meant them to do, while also putting a stop to this trick with as much emphasis on "path of least resistance" as possible.

But that's just me, and i'm not a wyrd designer - i have no idea what the future picture of their game looks like. Is it possible that this is just the first of a series of Teh Uber Combo's ? Maybe - i find it doubtful, but it is possible.

At this point, i'm going to ruminate on how to stop it if i see it, and wait for word from wyrd. :)

[nilus]

People say that I won't have opponents who will want to play me, but on the other hand, I enjoy challenges

Good because its gonna be a challenge to find anyone willing to watch you draw 54 cards every turn on a clearly broken combo.

I think a better challenge would just to be assume that this is already fixed(either make larvae a (2) action or just assume Mosquitos aren't Gremlins(but Sommer teeth can still hire them) and just play that way. You are likely to find more people willing to play that way as well.

[Sobek]

To quote a fellow gamer buddy of mine that i respect highly: The goal is to win, the objective is to have fun.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[Sushicaddy]

Well, you wouldn't make an initial flip because you can't, you'd have to go straight to the cheating fate part.

I don't mind your sass werecat but it doesn't do you any favours. I think I've said my piece and I'll leave it at that. You're either willing to take on a challenge or you want to bring the game down to a level you're comfortable with. People say that I won't have opponents who will want to play me, but on the other hand, I enjoy challenges so if someone doesn't want to provide that, then I won't enjoy the game much either. Maybe I won't want to play them because they lack the willingness to find solutions in what's meant to be a strategic game.

Having fun is all about your attitude. You can have fun if you want to.
I think calling the ability to create a (logically) infinite number of models and stacking a perfect hand "strategic" is kind of like putting a string of pearls on a pig and calling her your wife. Sure, you can punch anyone in the mouth who says differently, but it still doesn't change the fact that she's a pig.

[sprue]

Quick update. Played some games with the mosquitos to see how the tactic faired against my friend's Guild.
It was a 20 ss match. He drew treasure hunt and I drew assassinate.
His list:
Sonia
Executioner
Samael
witchling stalker

my list:
Jones
2 mosquitos
3 bayou gremlins
hog whisperer

The first turn was very uneventful. I was able to draw my hand but couldn't kill anything due to distance and I couldn't harm anyone with the mosquito because they stayed within range of sonia's ability to counter spells.

The second turn was more interesting, I launched a gremlin turned pig at him and he cam forward with the stalker. This time he decided to see what I could do with the mosquitos so his crew left the safety of Sonia's aura. The mosquitos made quick work of Samael and the Executioner but couldn't kill the stalker because of the low casting score they have. It was just bad luck he didn't get fend off the first two attacks. 16 isn't hard to beat.

Turn three I got the mosquitos wiped out. Since they all have to stay in close proximity to each other for their trick to work Sonia blasted them away with liberal use of cheating fate plus soulstones. There was no way I could have fended her off even with the joker and all four of the 13's in my hand. She then started pounding away at my gremlins with her remaining spells.

Turn four we exchanged blows and I was left with one gremlin, jones, and the hog whisperer, all severely damaged.

By turn 5 he had the treasure and was making his way back to his deployment zone, but on turn 6 I finally won the initiative and was able to shoot her dead before he could create a wall of flame and make his escape.


My final conclusion is that mosquitos are no where near as deadly as everyone fears. If my opponent had not made the error of leaving sonia's protective aura then he would have made it to my crew in tact and would have started killing my gremlins off. Where I once believed Sonia was the weakest of all the Guild masters I was surprised to see her effectively destroy most of the gremlin crew on her own. The game came down to who won the initiative on the last turn and if I had lost then I would probably have lost the game as well.

If I had not gone after the Guild crew with the mosquitos they'd still be alive and able to help put severe damage on his crew but severe damage for a Gremlin or a pig is only 3 and I'd have to deal with an samael and the executioner, one of which would most likely survive and kill them. I'll play another larger game soon and see how it goes then. We had a good time and it was a very close game.

I'd like to see some reports from other games involving mosquitos.

[n0signal]

http://ui31.gamespot.com/1214/deadhorsebeat_4.gif

[Sushicaddy]

http://ui31.gamespot.com/1214/deadhorsebeat_4.gif
:ditto:

[EricJ]

Don't worry all, I am watching this thread, and no, no infinite loops will remain in the game. I am just making sure the solution is the correct one, and expect an Errata on this today or tomorrow.

Thanks!
Eric

[WombatCowboy]

Quick update guys I just finished turn one of the game I started with the skeeter horde 11 days ago. It's a 25SS scrim with me having Somer, 3 skeeters, a whisperer and 2 Bayous vs LJ, the exe 2 marshals, and the Judge.

First turn consisted of me moving somer up, summoning another gremlin and taking the next 11 days to figure out what I was going to do, I drew 53 cards, moved teh skeeters in for the assassination, decided not to and did this till the first night was over.

My opponent had just watched Rocky and didn't want to give up after a mere 6 hours so we reconviened the next night for more of my indisions. I could make up my mind so I just kept summing mosquetos waiting for my opponent to counter it. I figured by showing him this maneuver repeatedly it wouldn't just buy me time buy help my opponent get used to it and come up with a counter.

Long story short 11 days later I have a plan and finished my first turn. I'm just going to wait till one of the guild gets close enough for Som'er to discard their hand than send in the skeeters.

Will update when turn 2 ends!

[Sobek]

Heh. Sounds like the most boring game ever. ;)

[Reuben]

Don't worry all, I am watching this thread, and no, no infinite loops will remain in the game. I am just making sure the solution is the correct one, and expect an Errata on this today or tomorrow.

Thanks!
Eric

Any word on the errata covering this?

[HenryWard]

I've been curious to see this get resolved, too...

[Black_Mamba]

I'm not sure that the question should be "what makes Teeth competitive." I think I'd play him because he looks cool and I think he and his crew would create a great deal of havoc and I'd have a helluva fun time running him.

[zombied00d]

Wait, so a hyper specific build using an alreeady underpowered master is somehow threatening to break the game?

Imagine that card draw in a cycling deck format proves to be over powered. Man, I'd have never seen that coming if I'd... ever... looked... at ...ccg... design...

Okay folks here's the thing recursion combined with card draw= busted.

The break point here isn't simply Teeth. An identical example can be made any time you use the Hog whisperers. If you're drawing 8 cards every time you meet a condition, that means it will only take you 6 recursions to complete drawing your deck into your hand. This can actually be done with Zoriada as well.

Incidentally, you can also use "git yore bro" for this combo as well. It's not as efficient as using the skeeters (since the skeeter larva has no casting cost) but all you need to be able to do is pull a 13 into your hand and presto, insta loop thanks to the fact skeeters can cast "Git your bro" as well.

The larva loop isn't the problem. The no cost card draw is.

[Omenbringer]

I would argue that Teeth's card cycling ability is the reason why he doesn't have a soulstone cache like the other non-outcast masters and has such a samll choice in crew composition. I mean he has to be good at something right?

[zombied00d]

"Exploiting Rules Loopholes" is rarely a feature designed into a figure/card.

But Kudos to them if it is, they are better men than I!

[Garthon]

I think without the card loop Som'er is very competitive. The Dumb luck ability can potentially double his and other gremlins damage, the pigs can throw out quite a bit of damge for their point cost and having the pig whisperer makes quite a bit of difference.

With Som'er and the whisperer making more troops for you, a smart player can balance his troop losses with those of his opponent. It may be a battle of attrition, but Som'er is equiped to come out ahead!

[Omenbringer]

I definately think Teeth is competitive without the card loop. The difficulty in resolving this issue is to make sure the right fix is enacted without hamstringing something that he may have been designed to use to offset the "Ill fated" rule and the awesomeness that is the Gremlin Stat line (I am not talking about the loop hole that has been described). Remember the law of unintended consequences in this situation, any decision could greatly affect the game now and in the future.


P.S. I think the card generation loophole as described by WombatCowboy earlier would lead to the second most boring game I've ever played (the first being the PHaley turtle vs my HR turtle). At the point where it takes you 11 days to decide what you want to do, 6 hours to complete your turn, and your opponent is doing something else during your turn, why even play.

[zombied00d]

Yeah but the issue with the loophole isn't that it requires a great deal of time to execute. You can complete it in 5 iterations if you run 4 hog whisperers and 2 mosquito. Think about that. In 5 actions, I can draw my entire deck into my hand AT NO COST. And there's almost nothing my opponent can do to stop it unless they're built specifically with stopping a solitaire game in mind. Even then, stopping it will likely entail them feeding me their army piecemeal anyway.

[Omenbringer]

I dont see how they will have to feed you their crew piecemeal to win. The list that you presented is really only good at cycling cards. The whisperers are 90% worthless without any pigs, the skeeters are half dead (and because of insignificant cant claim objectives or contribute to scenario win conditions), and only So'mer has a gun (with no way to bring out Bayou Gremlins with "git y'er bro").

They can just stay clear of you and complete their strategy and schemes, while you have to keep the group tight (within 6 inches) and complete your activation pretty much the same way each time. If they feel like taking the fight to you, then they can have their master use some of the soulstones they have cached and start killing off your skeeters with spells or ranged attacks (21 DF is not that difficult to hit when you can add two cards and the stat of the master which is usually 7 or 8). Once the skeeters are gone the whole house of cards crumbles.

A balanced Gremlin list might fair better because of increased options, but once again the skeeters are priority targets and once they fall the trick is done.

I think it is the potential of what the skeeters can do unchecked that is their real strength. As soon as you place them on the board you know that your opponent is going to have to focus a lot of energy into them and going to want to win the initiative right off.

In the end though, this loophole will be closed and I wouldn't miss it at all, as it never occured to me that you could use an All action on a model that is suffering from slow. The only caveat to this being that it doesn't completely hamstring a model that already has his fair share of disadvantages.

[zombied00d]

My point here is that even spending 19 points on this set up 3 hog whisperers, 2 skeeters, I still have points left over. If I drop 2 more points for a single gremlin, I can add 2 gremlins a turn once I cycle my deck into to my hand (Summon, heal, summon)

The Hog Whisperers don't do anything? I dunno, I think no cost card draw is pretty powerful myself. But then again, as stated, I'm approaching this as a ccg player. A utility that starts in play and is ALWAYS active.

Oh yeah, plus the way the rules are set, once I put this engine into play, I ALMOST ALWAYS go first (the only time I wouldn't would be if after discarding down my opponent also flips the red joker for his initiative pull).

So I get no cost card draw and I get to go first each turn. For free. Yeah, I can live with a diminished number of pigs for that.

Given the alternating turn sequence, in order to strike at the Gremlin card draw machine, the opponent has to telegraph intent by moving a model into a threat position (given that this combo will likely as not be masturbating wildly in the corner of the table) thus granting the chance to strike either directly or in response to the opponent moving up.

[Omenbringer]

First, you cant cheat the initiative draw except by spending SS and re-flipping (you cant cheat from your hand page 43). So you wont always be going first, in fact by having the 5 best cards in your hand you are actually increasing the odds of losing the initiative draw.

Second, look at the abilities of the Whisperers, they are all geared toward supporting the pigs. On their own they are fairly worthless for winning the game.

Third, if you camp in a corner, you can (and probably will) still lose the game, you only win by completing the strategy and schemes you have drawn and chosen. Stalling, for the most part, gets you no where in this game.

Fourth, telegraphing or not, each faction has plenty of ways to get at you from beyond your threat range. Also remember that the Gremlin crew isn't very durable to begin with, they have none of the neat abilities to counteract damage (Armour, Hard to wound/kill, regeneration, decent defense) and for the most part skeeters are going to have 3 WDs, while healthy Bayou Gremlins have only 4. The only real damage producers you have are So'mers' or the Bayou Gremlins' guns and neither one of these are super great even with "Y'all watch this" and "Dumb luck" in effect (even the warpig doesn't do that much damage).

I still say that the trick is neat but not quite as powerful as it may appear in theory. The true power in this game is the SS that the masters can use. As mentioned in a previous post, the skeeter has the best Df in the Gremlin crew and a master using SS isn't going to strugle that much to beat it. And with the exception of the Outcast Masters, all others start with at least 2 SS cached.

This is not a CCG.

[zombied00d]

I don't have to cheat the initiative draw. If the last card in my deck is the red joker it will be reshuffled into the deck of 1 card, BEFORE I have to discard down to 5 cards at the start of the turn, meaning I discard 48 cards, flip the red joker for initiative, secure the first action, and then reshuffle my now 49 card deck.

I understand it's not a ccg, however the game theory that underlies ccg design is evident in how the decks are utilized, especially given the mechanics of card draw and that you and your opponent are always drawing from completely independant decks.

(Aside) People assume that the only mechanic behind how ccg's work is how much money you dump into them, this is completely untrue. Consistency is much more signifgant than one would imagine. Consistency is all about optimizing your capacity to use your resources. That's why the cards that most frequently break ccg enviroments are ones that allow you to tutor your deck for a minimal cost or draw cards with little to no cost. (End aside)

Additionally, yes, in low point games, the fact you're dumping 19 points into drawing your hand every turn isn't that hot. How about at 35 points or 50 points? Then I've got warpigs rampaging across the table that are hitting anything that's not a master and inflicting wounds left right and center. And that same 19 points is still drawing me my deck, EVERY TURN

So if my pigs are running around hitting a defense of 18 everytime they flip, and triggering squeal how many models can stand up to that, reliably? I don't even have to bother going after masters until I've killed off the rest of their crew. Even then, I force them to burn soulstones or eat 6 damage a pop everytime a warpig looks at them.

Or even leaving aside the warpigs, what happens in 50 point games? I leave 19 points to play solitaire in a corner every turn while 31 points of "I throw 14(suit of choice) for every test, including defense" murder runs around decimating the table.

That's the issue. Sure it doesn't create a win condition. It just breaks the mechanics behind the game of "random draw"

[greyseerco]

As a recent "victim" of the draw the complete deck into hand with a 4 mosquito, 2 Hog Whisperer, Warpig 25SS list, I must say this was rather disheartening, even when I ran a mostly construct list with Rasputina.

Turn 1, during all my activations, he just kept sacraficing one mosquito to another generating cards until all my activations were over, then proceeded to draw his entire deck. Then using the mosquitos to basically pull themselves across the board (using the combination of Summon and the fact that an All action can still be done if you are slowed), "moved" his 4 mosquitos across the board, then "moved" them right next to Rasputina, then had one attack with a red-joker, to which rasputina flipped, cheated and soulstoned to stay alive. Have a second mosquito repeat with a 13 and rasputina doing the same. Then using the other two sacraficed them away and moved, them back to the otherside of the board. Round 2 and 3 were the same until Rasputina died, having run out of soulstones.

So we meta-gamed a bit more and my only solution to this is to run with an all construct list, but even then with a Warpig with a stacked deck (by discarding all but the best, and spending the first portion of the turn drawing up the deck) he can kill most anything. If he can play the discard pile as only three cards (red joker and two 13's) card there is a 2/3 chance the attack is a 13, a 50/50 chance of the damage being red joker, and if so a warpig can do 12 points of damage in a single hit.

So I do hope there is a fix for this card draw engine, as it does make for very long and one sided battle.

[Reuben]

I played against this combo, and above anything else it just wasn't fun to play against. Yes, I nearly pulled victory - in order to do that, I had a ridiculously lucky card draws (I was soulstoning Kings on top of Joker draws) and still I lost. But the most unsatisfying thing about playing against it is that I ended up playing against the combo, not the game itself. Every action was predicated on dealing with this tactic, rather than having my own plan of action or ways of threatening the opponent. That wasn't fun to play. I like a challenge but I like to be a challenge too.

[Pavic]

Well, it has been just over a month since EricJ said that we would have an errata. I imagine that they must be having a real issue with coming up with some type of solution that eliminates this combo but also allows Somer to maintain his card drawing mechanic.

[zombied00d]

Drop the cost on the Hog whisperers to 3 points each, give So'mer a 2 stone cache and change the wording on SotF to add "once per turn." Change the larva action to (2)

Bam fixed.

Keeps the card draw intact, but disallows the huge cascade, and it fixes the recursive summoning loop.

[Reuben]

Drop the cost on the Hog whisperers to 3 points each, give So'mer a 2 stone cache and change the wording on SotF to add "once per turn." Change the larva action to (2)

Bam fixed.

Keeps the card draw intact, but disallows the huge cascade, and it fixes the recursive summoning loop.

I'd say just make (ALL) actions impossible when slowed.

[nilus]

Those are all great suggestions but you have to realize that part of the reason the FAQ and this fix is taking this long is because the guys are most likely testing these combos to make sure these changes don't break anything else.

It's easy to say "Do this, bam now its fixed" without considering the bigger picture(IE Model intent, point balancing and possible interaction with models not published yet). Eric and team are making sure how ever they fix it, it will be fixed right and fair and hopefully not to complicated.

[Monkey]

Im going to start playing a teeth crew as soon as mr posty gets the stuff to me. Till there is a fix for this, im going to use my own gut feeling I will use skeeters sac and resac to gen cards a fair bit to get an edge in combat but im not going to go for the full deck in my hand kinda game as its dull for me to play.

[Snakeman]

As a recent "victim" of the draw the complete deck into hand with a 4 mosquito, 2 Hog Whisperer, Warpig 25SS list, I must say this was rather disheartening, even when I ran a mostly construct list with Rasputina.

Turn 1, during all my activations, he just kept sacraficing one mosquito to another generating cards until all my activations were over, then proceeded to draw his entire deck. Then using the mosquitos to basically pull themselves across the board (using the combination of Summon and the fact that an All action can still be done if you are slowed), "moved" his 4 mosquitos across the board, then "moved" them right next to Rasputina, then had one attack with a red-joker, to which rasputina flipped, cheated and soulstoned to stay alive. Have a second mosquito repeat with a 13 and rasputina doing the same. Then using the other two sacraficed them away and moved, them back to the otherside of the board. Round 2 and 3 were the same until Rasputina died, having run out of soulstones.

So we meta-gamed a bit more and my only solution to this is to run with an all construct list, but even then with a Warpig with a stacked deck (by discarding all but the best, and spending the first portion of the turn drawing up the deck) he can kill most anything. If he can play the discard pile as only three cards (red joker and two 13's) card there is a 2/3 chance the attack is a 13, a 50/50 chance of the damage being red joker, and if so a warpig can do 12 points of damage in a single hit.

So I do hope there is a fix for this card draw engine, as it does make for very long and one sided battle.

I'd say the "fix" to this problem, until such time as there's an official errata is a conversation with your opponent that goes something like this: "OK, we've indulged the mental exercise of trying to break the game mechanics and satisfied our curiosity that it can be done. Now, I'll ask you to kindly refrain from doing that to such an extreme in the future if you want both of us to continue playing a game and enjoying giving each other a challenge. If not, I'm sure there's a bag of sand around here somewhere that you can just punch randomly that will give you as much of a contest."

This is, of course, assuming that you're playing in the context that I do - where your opponents are people you enjoy hanging out with and giving one another a mental challenge regardless of the game being miniatures, checkers, or gin rummy.


Hoping they do have an official "fix" to this soon. I like the hillbilly goblins but don't want to be known for playing "that cheesy crew".

[Borzag]

Okay, I'm yet to have a game (was going to have one yesterday but a meeting ran late), but just a quick observation based on time playing Menites:

Yes, sacrificing your models "for the greater good" is all well and good, but don't you, you know, need to have models on the table to actually play the game?

Yes, :teeth can summon more gob... er, GREMlins with Git Yer Bro, but he needs to have some on the table to start with. And you need to kill a lot of pigs and Gremmies to go through the combos to get them. That's a lot of dead bodies, while your opponent is doing things like moving around and not generating duels so you sit there like a jackass with a handful of cards and not getting to use them. And when you throw in Encounters and Schemes, where you need to start looking at board control, and suddenly having less models for more cards (which need to be recycled anyway) doesn't seem like a great choice.

Having said that, my Gremlins won't be doing this trick. They already kill themselves through brute idiocy, so why add to that number for a cheesy game of Solitaire?

Borzag

[Monkey]

OK so now the skeeters are fixed and SOTF have had a good old poke from the nurf stick what makes jones effective? As im kinda struggeling to see a solid tactic. So jones will blow his activation to generate 1 card over a normal starting hand for a normal crew. so would it be a better bet to drop jones and forget about the card generation and use Zoraida as a master and then just have the hog wisperer about to gen more cards ?

sorry for the random bold text cant get rid of it even highlighting and then clicking hte bold button wont clear it.

[n0signal]

Well, since most people seem to feel that the nerf to SotF is a tad harsh, hopefully it'll be reversed or re-jiggered accordingly. Unless Wyrd want the Gremlins to be completely reliant upon luck/Fate, which is how they play at the moment. <_<

[AoM]

Not completely reliant upon fate unless you're playing them wrong. I've got a Gremlins player who constantly wrecks face.

Pigs, Focus, and the Alpha Stank are amazing. So what if you can't double/triple/quadruple trigger Survival of the Fittest? Push models towards you with pigs and then hit them with a wall of stank. You've got a killer damage potential there.

Gremlins can reactivate. Move, Focus. Survive. Stab in the ass. Survive. Focus again.

Give a Gremlin slow? No problem. Reckless puts you right back where you want to be; and since you're not using more than 2 actions that way, you're not taking the damage.

Seriously, Gremlins are every bit as nasty as a Nicodem list or a Pandora list.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

:teeth:withstupi

Stop trying to play the Gremlins like they're the Guild.

[AoM]

Guild, Arcanists, dead hooker swarm, whatever. Gremlins can take them all, play with their own twist on them all, and do it all with bacon and 'shine.

[n0signal]

Push models towards you with pigs and then hit them with a wall of stank. You've got a killer damage potential there.
Can someone explain this "alpha stank" tactic to me. I assume above you're talking about Bowl Over to move things 4"? You're reliant on hitting well, with a Pig, needing a mask?


Gremlins can reactivate. Move, Focus. Survive. Stab in the ass. Survive. Focus again.
How are the Gremlins getting Reactivate!? I've highlighted the word above that is a problem with the Gremlins and Piglets. Having 4/5 wounds I find that pretty much anything is one-shotted with Critical Strikes.

Seriously, I love my littlke Gremlin buggers. I have great fun playing with them!! They just seem like the "joke" crew at the moment and I'd like to know exactly how people are allegedly being so devastating with them. I've had my ass utterly pwned by the likes of Lady Justice and Lilith, because Gremlins can't survive raw damage output... and without high :rams cards I can't get Dumb Luck off to strike back with equal force.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Can someone explain this "alpha stank" tactic to me. I assume above you're talking about Bowl Over to move things 4"? You're reliant on hitting well, with a Pig, needing a mask?
Pull My Finger + Skeeters

10 Damage from 10" away. Think about it.



How are the Gremlins getting Reactivate!? I've highlighted the word above that is a problem with the Gremlins and Piglets. Having 4/5 wounds I find that pretty much anything is one-shotted with Critical Strikes.
Hog Whisperer's Stick 'im in tha Ass.

[Godspeed]

a couple of Q's.

1) What is this Alpha Stank? I assume it has something to do with abusing Pull my finger...
2) Is there a for sure ruling that slow and reckless fast mitigate losing any actions and still no wounds? Upon wording, that seems right but this game has it's fair share of poor wording (expected to work out in company growth, amazing game)
3) What is a typical list you use? I am considering these guys over my guild for an event at 30 SS but not sure I have what it'll take. I own the box, 2 whisperers, 4 Piglets and a Warpig. I can proxy the Skeeters, may need more Gremlins I presume...How many soulstones should I cache?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

1) What is this Alpha Stank? I assume it has something to do with abusing Pull my finger...
See my post above.

2) Is there a for sure ruling that slow and reckless fast mitigate losing any actions and still no wounds? Upon wording, that seems right but this game has it's fair share of poor wording (expected to work out in company growth, amazing game)
It works as written. If they pop reckless after being Slow due to being summoned, they can perform 2 actions. They aren't taking more than 2.

3) What is a typical list you use? I am considering these guys over my guild for an event at 30 SS but not sure I have what it'll take. I own the box, 2 whisperers, 4 Piglets and a Warpig. I can proxy the Skeeters, may need more Gremlins I presume...How many soulstones should I cache?
Load up on Mosquitos.
Save at least 4 Stones for the Alpha Stank.

[n0signal]

Hog Whisperer's Stick 'im in tha Ass.
Yeah, but that only works on Pigs, not Gremlins right?

Perhaps my problem is that I'm not running any skeeters. I've not proxied them because the actual models are out soon so it seemed trivial to just wait for them. :wacko:

[Godspeed]

ooo....nice!

I am planning to run

Teeth
2x Giant Mosquitos
Bayou Gremlin
Hog Whisperer
2x Piglets
Warpig

The lone Gremlin is for duplication thru GYB, do you think I need a full 4 skeeters? If I were to take them I'd need to drop a piglet I assume...

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Yeah, but that only works on Pigs, not Gremlins right?
It does only work on pigs.

But when you're running two Warpigs that are flying... Or just one and some piglets...

It's bacon time.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

ooo....nice!

I am planning to run

Teeth
2x Giant Mosquitos
Bayou Gremlin
Hog Whisperer
2x Piglets
Warpig

The lone Gremlin is for duplication thru GYB, do you think I need a full 4 skeeters? If I were to take them I'd need to drop a piglet I assume...

If you want to, start a factory.

Git yer Bro, then heal one of the two Gremlin on the table, then have one Skeeter (Companion) make another skeeter out of the one that has less wounds, Survival of the Fittest triggers.
Gets you a net of 2 cards, and a Mosquito in one Turn. All for the cost of one point of damage.

Meanwhile, have your Warpig & Piglets running distraction.

[Godspeed]

Nice. I usually do spend my first turn or 2 making Gremlins and sending the lemming troopers to the field while sticking back and doing this. My list is usually the box+Whisperer tho. My Piglets are in the mail and I am going to proxy some Skeeters.

[AoM]

Gremlins and Leveticus are actually more about using your crew as a whole than just about any other faction/crew when you actually get down to it.

Sorry for the erroneous comment about reactivating Gremlins. I don't have cards or my book with me at work.

I can't wait to see what Eric's got in mind for the gremlins in the next book. He's said they're working on it, and I'm hoping we see some more crazy stuff.

The Gremlins might have the most humor, but they are definitely no joke.

[n0signal]

Not meaning to thread-necro (think of it more as a "steampunk thread zombie") but I played a game with Teeth last night where I actually felt, for the first time, that I got a firm grip on how to use him and his crew. BTW, I've had a load of games with him now, so I think it's probably taken me longer than most to learn all this. :disappoin

Firstly, I maxed out on as many Piglets as I could, along with the War Pig; I kept a few stones back for the Hog Whisperer and a couple of Bayou Gremlin. From the get-go I sent all the Pigs and Whisperer up field to start harassing the enemy. Meanwhile Jones sat back and began to "Git yer bro" onto the Gremlins, creating two new ones and leaving them all surrounding him (2" away) and on 2 wounds.

From the second turn I started making snap decisions whether to give the Gremlins a swig and get them healed, or to stab them up with his Pig Sticker and use "Come and get it" to get another 100% healthy Piglet back onto the board. Basically, I activated Jones towards the end of each turn and if a Piglet had been killed, then I bought another one on, if not then I healed a Gremlins or two or did another "Git yer bro" - the important thing is to be always bringing on new models or healing them each turn. (I always left at least two Gremlins on half wounds tho so that I could reliably kill them if needed for "Come and get it".)

The Hog Whisperer got spanked mid-game, and only had a single wound left, so he withdrew to claim objectives, leaving the Pigs to stampede all over the place. However, Jones and his Gremlins where all behind forests, blocking LOS, so could never be a target of the Pigcharges. ;)

[AoM]

leave off a few pigs for a couple more gremlins. Move, Focus a shot, take your wound, then you can still get split for "Git Yer Bro." You've now got a Gremlin with 1 wound left. if he dies, you get a card. The new Gremlin with 2 wounds is slow, but you can still get 2 actions with Reckless. And since Reckless specifically states that you get hurt if you use more than 2 actions, you're still in the clear.

Just wait. I'm sure Eric and Nathan aren't done with these guys yet.

[Tyrant]

Not completely reliant upon fate unless you're playing them wrong. I've got a Gremlins player who constantly wrecks face.

Hey, I think he's talking about me.

I find that the Gremlin list doesn't rely on luck when you use "Focused Shot" with the gremlins, usually only doing one damage anyway, but the focused shot is worth it to make sure your own models are safe.

One strategy that has worked fantastic in the past was mentioned on the first page, take piglets, give them fly, give the warpig reactivate, send them in after the opposing crew has finished activating. The piglets hit the enemy work with small amounts of damage, or even missing. The warpig goes in, maybe hits someone, then reactivates, this time stampeding. Makes 3 pigcharge attacks, if he kills anyone, he can eat his fill to fully heal. Next turn a full barrage of pigcharges for the enemy force. Sheer number of attacks are the way to go.

The Alpha Stank works amazingly in theory, I have yet to pick up Skeeters to actually try it, the thought is to pigcharge with a piglet, cheat with a decent mask to bowl them over towards your Skeeters and Jones, then abuse Pull mah finger to do 10-12 damage with the opponent having no resist flip.

Now for the math/summoning strategy, watch the magic of how to spend your soulstones with abuse, you should have a mask in your hand when you start this. Take one gremlin, and Som'r; activate the gremlin and use 3AP (Pass actions work just fine, an already injured gremlin works better) activate Som'r, cast "git yer bro" (Obviously only try if you know it will work) now you have two gremlins, one with 2Wd, one with 1Wd. Attack the 1Wd one with "Pigsticker Strike", cheat in your mask, cheat the gremlin down, kill the Gremlin. Draw 2 cards for a gremlin dying within 6", then discard 2 cards and summon a piglet. If by this time you have a mask in your hand, attack the second gremlin and cheat the same way. Now you just earned 4 Soulstones, going from a 2 point Gremlin to two 3 point piglets.

Also with Git yer bro, decently hard cast, but for every SS you don't spend on models, it's almost an automatic success for the Git yer bro spell. Also keep a SS or two on hand if you plan on bringing Jones to the front, a well cheated mask plus a added card with a melee attack against a weakened enemy model can easily earn you a brand new piglet... from small mechanical spiders, pigs. Spiderpigs, Spider pigs....

Well that seems to be all I can think of to talk about in way of how my strategy works, I tend to win, I lost against Z, armor on everything really slows my strategy down, beat Angel twice, and wiped the floor with Ramos more than once. I plan on showing up at the York tournament and trying my hand with a few new players. I'd love to play against Lilith, I think they'd all die nice and fast like. Aft'r all, she does got a purty mouth.

[Wombats]

Can you Eat Your Fill while Stampeding?

I assumed it was not a Pigcharge and therefore can't be done while Stampeding...

...I could be quite wrong...in fact, I hope I am :)

[n0signal]

I'd always interpreted it that a stampeding Pig must use all it's AP to Pigcharge at a (1) AP cost; noth that it can't do anything else. (0)Eat Your Fill doesn't cost any AP, so you're not spending AP on something that isn't a Pigcharge; therefore I would think it is legal. ;)

[Tyrant]

I'd always interpreted it that a stampeding Pig must use all it's AP to Pigcharge at a (1) AP cost; noth that it can't do anything else. (0)Eat Your Fill doesn't cost any AP, so you're not spending AP on something that isn't a Pigcharge; therefore I would think it is legal. ;)
Right, that's how I've got it, if you're reading the card it says "can take no other actions than pigcharge" (Paraphrased), but the errata changed it to what was listed by n0signal there. Pigs are where it's at in the gremlin list, gremlins themselves are for summoning more pigs.

Bet I look purty smart right 'bout now. (Sorry, at least one Gremlin-like comment required per post, can't help it.)

[Pandora]

In response to the question what makes teeth competitive? The number one thing in my mind in the game. Cards. He can draw more, and he can make you discard yours. Played properly this guy is more than a handfull.
Throw in pigs and 2 point models that shoot at cb 4 with range 12 and high damage. What else do you need? Did I mention he's also the most fun to play?