Soul Stones in Box Set/Learning games

[Malifoe]

For balance in demo games when using box sets against each other, do you use a set points limit or just box on box? If the latter, do you fill up the lower point value box on soul stones to balance it off or are they meant to be played straight against each other?

As an example, the Cult of December Box is 21 stones (I think) but some of the other boxes are more. If you were to play CoD against another box, would you add soulstones to the pool to equal it out?

What point level do you recommend for learning games? I see more than a few recommendations for 25 stones. I am most interested in learning Levi, so I would like to get my losing streak started tonight on my way to learning how he plays. Would it be best to play against another box set and just build up to their "stone level" or should we have a slightly higher level? The latter would allow my opponent to swap in other models or just increase his starting cache a little.

Last question- which rules, if any, do you streamline or cut out when demoing? I have a good amount of warmachine experience and I remember those demos as focusing much more on the "jack go smash" mechanics and much less on the "my 8 model combo just mudhole-stomped you" idea that makes up the bulk of a more advanced game. Is there an equivalent here? I am worried about overloading new players with interesting mechanics and getting the feared eye glaze.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

25 Stones is a great starting point. Everyone can play with just a box or the addition of a figure or two. (Ramos has to break up one of the swarms to single Steampunk Arachnids though).

If you have the time to demo a full game then I'd do that.

[AoM]

What he said. 25 Stones is a great starting size, and you'll like that the Raspy box is only 21 stones when you've got a Master that's kicking ass and spending stones.

There's nothing we didn't show off at Gen Con. We started with unopposed duels, then opposed duels, then cheating, damage, and triggers. sometimes cheating would get shown off in an unopposed duel if it made more sense (wanting to attack a Terrifying --> 12 model but flipping the black joker, for instance). We didn't really cover shooting into melee, but that's really just an additional duel, and then some flipping.

[Malifoe]

Actually, the booth demos at Gencon is where my question comes from. All of the Wyrd guys I met were awesome and incredibly helpful/knowledgable. However, they were very reticent about actually showing how the game worked. I went to the booth three time before I actually got to play out some of the mechanics with miniatures and then only for one round.

I went to one of the official demos (the one that the D6 generation attended), but it was crazy loud and the rules felt a little overwhelming to me.. I have since read through the rules and really enjoy how they work, but I worry about scaring off new players. Now, this is the internet and you can write that experience off to my being brain damaged, but I thought a more basic version might be useful.

Have you had success with teaching the full game straight out of the gate?

[Keltheos]

The only starter that's not themed for 25 is the Gremilns. They take a blister of piglets or gremlins or the hog whisperer to bump up to competitive at around 23. Otherwise, Jones is bringing in something like 8 SS to the game (I think the boxed set stones out at 16).

[Keltheos]

Actually, the booth demos at Gencon is where my question comes from. All of the Wyrd guys I met were awesome and incredibly helpful/knowledgable. However, they were very reticent about actually showing how the game worked. I went to the booth three time before I actually got to play out some of the mechanics with miniatures and then only for one round.

Have you had success with teaching the full game straight out of the gate?

I have, part of the reason for the shorter demos at the booth was the number of folks asking for a demo. ;)

I'd leave the Encounter system out of any demo I was running unless I knew up front the players were interested in it and asked about it (or knew my play group were completists during demos).

Demoing is a fine art. It takes equal parts knowledge, patience, and ability to read your demo audience's interests.

For a full game demo, I'd run things this way:

1. give a overview of the Duel system (stat + flip = total against a target number). I like throwing a stat of 5 vs a 12.
2. show how an opposed duel is like #1, but both have stat 5 and flip.
3. briefly explain cheating and how it affects 1 and 2.
4. explain what the different stats are (describe, not fully what each does)
5. explain how the activation sequence works (alternating, 2 AP per activation)

Then throw down a turn. Do the Initiative flip (gauge your audience for Soulstone use during the demo), then explain what actions are available as the players move. "Walking is 1 AP, you move the Wk stat", "sure, take a shot with the pistol. It's 1 AP and starts an opposed duel." And so on.

Things will slow down as you explain the twisting fate steps and how damage is resolved, but the players should feel enmeshed enough in the game to get the gist. Something else, have copies of the quickreference sheet handy for all players in the demo. Sometimes that answers questions before they're asked.

You may even want to run a demo with less than a full Crew. Say, run a 15 point game with the Master and 1 or 2 Minions (it's still a legal game, but speeds up the learning time since players won't have so many abilities to learn as they're learning the core mechanics).

Most important: pause and check the players' sanity when you see glazed stares across the table. ;)

[EricJ]

Gencon was VERY busy in the wyrd booth, and the demo tables were usually packed the whole time, which is good, but also unfortunately lead to our demo'er and the demo'ies getting overwhelmed, rushed, or just having it be real loud around the demo. It's a good problem to have I suppose, but I do wish we had about a dozen tables there and enough people to give everyone the in depth demo they deserved.

Now that the Gencon rush is done, we can take the time to hopefully show everyone all the details, answer all the questions, and get everyone up to speed on Malifaux!

I think it's safe to say so far that Wyrd may be getting a larger booth next year :D

[McNs]

I've demoed Malifaux a few times; both working at 25 (fill to SS) or just taking the Master's cache for the box sets has worked OK.

I've demoed with the full-rules and have tried to teach by example with stuff like Focusing, Defensive Stance, etc. There's really nothing in Malifaux that's OMGBBQBorken, especially since one-shotting a Master is exceptionally hard and doesn't end the game.

As for Levi, I'd start with a different Master. For starters, three of the rather important pieces you need for him are unreleased (Desolation Engines, Hollow Waifs, and Steampunk Abominations). If you're OK with proxying, I'd still get a game or two in with Ramos or Seamus before you go hole hog into Levi, just to sound up your mechanics.

I tried jumping whole hog into the "Crazy Cat Lady" list an Gencon and missed a lot of Rasputina's core mechanics for my trouble. KISS to start, I say.

[nilus]

Actually, the booth demos at Gencon is where my question comes from. All of the Wyrd guys I met were awesome and incredibly helpful/knowledgable. However, they were very reticent about actually showing how the game worked. I went to the booth three time before I actually got to play out some of the mechanics with miniatures and then only for one round.

Well for the in booth demos we were generally giving people a taste of the game. So generally we only ran through a combat round or so. If people wanted to try more and it wasn't busy(which was rare on the shifts I worked) I usually ran till one of the two models died. But like AoM said we covered the basic mechanics.

For running a demo in store I would start with giving them a taste. Show them the duel mechanic, explain triggers, then run through a 1 on 1 mock combat to show them how damage works. From there depending on how much you think they grasped the game I would move up to either a 15 stone(3 on 3) game or a full 25 stone game.

[AoM]

I'll admit to keeping things covering the mechanics, but not going past a duel or two, since the booth was packed! It was awesome, but even when we had 2 people doing demos at the same time on 1 table, there were always more people who wanted stuff, or people seemed happy and were on their way to see WEiRD sKeTCH standing near the product, guiding them to the models they'd buy.

In store demos, I agree with what's been said. start off explaining unopposed and then opposed duels, then throw cheating in with one or the other. That gets people familiar with the card mechanics. After that, you've got time to run through a quick scrap with the starters.

[HenryWard]

It's probably too early to tell, but what's this going to mean for Ramos in battlebox-style tournaments and the like? He seems to have cornered the market in raw points value, but it also seems unfortunate to just tell the Ramos players they can't play with their battlebox and have to part out the bots or sub in other figures.

[Zee]

While I had good experiences, I've heard otherwise. Sadly.

I had a local tell me that he was not impressed with the 1-1 model duels. I understand his complaint, and I also understand demoing concerns with tons o people, but if you involve multiple people in the demo, it makes it a little less imposing, and puts you [the demoguy] in a better position to monitor the actions.

I would keep Soul Stones to a bare minimum, myself.

Just my 2 soulstones.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

It's probably too early to tell, but what's this going to mean for Ramos in battlebox-style tournaments and the like? He seems to have cornered the market in raw points value, but it also seems unfortunate to just tell the Ramos players they can't play with their battlebox and have to part out the bots or sub in other figures.
Having one swarm and the other three arachnids parted out is perfect. Especially when you want the swarm to "split up".

[HenryWard]

Thanks - to clarify, though, even if the others are parted out, how much would you expect players to field? Just one swarm, with all the other bots parted out so you can split, is only 19 points, which leaves the box undergunned next to almost all the others. You could play it at 25 with a swarm and two singles, I guess, and keep the extra for summoning...

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Thanks - to clarify, though, even if the others are parted out, how much would you expect players to field? Just one swarm, with all the other bots parted out so you can split, is only 19 points, which leaves the box undergunned next to almost all the others. You could play it at 25 with a swarm and two singles, I guess, and keep the extra for summoning...
There ya go.

Seamus' box is only 18 stones...
Lilith's is 19...
Lady J's is 20...

[HenryWard]

Ok, I think I'm just spoiled for context then, since the other box I own is Zoraida and I haven't pointed everything yet to know all of them. Makes sense to me!

[Malifoe]

Thanks for the responses, guys. I like the idea of explaining the fate deck, dueling system, twisting first. Then stepping it up to a small game.

Just to be completely clear, I wasn't knocking the Wyrd crew, as they were invariably excited about the game and wanted to help. There was always a crowd at the booth and the demo and it looked like the product was flying off the shelves. The only thing that was difficult was actually figuring out the mechanics. It came highly recommended from a friend, so on my second trip to the booth I resolved to buy the book and a crew and teach myself if need be.

The last time I was there (on Sunday), Kelthios and Ambrose (don't know your forum name) took the time to actually explain a bunch of the mechanics and run through a turn of actions. This helped immensely with both my understanding of the game and my interest in it. It also corrected a number of my rule misunderstandings.

Definitely need a bigger booth next year, since there will be even more models to sell!

[AoM]

Definitely need a bigger booth next year, since there will be even more models to sell!
There will also be more official events. :D

[marcraxus]

....and please, not in that tiny room upstairs. In the Minis hall downstairs with plenty of table space and lots of potential converts! :D