The Five Factions, In Play

[EricJ]

So quite a few people have sent me questions since the release of the Wyrd Chronicles 2 wanting to know more about the style of play for the different factions. Since we didn't cover it in the magazine, I'll cover it here!

The Guild:
Offense: Deadly in hand to hand, with moderate ranged attacks, however being relatively fast they are able to close the gap quickly
Defense: They are generally hard to hit, but have light armor and tend to be easier to kill once you manage to hit them.
Magic: The start a game with large stores of magic resources, but regain magic slower than any other faction as the game progresses. Their spells tend to focus on increasing their physical abilities and defenses.
Other: Each different group within the guild focuses on a different enemy (of the other 3 primary factions), and has special abilities and spells which help them combat that faction. Justice and the Death Marshals hunt the Resurrectionists, The Ortegas hunt the Neverborn, and Sonia and the Witchhunters hunt the Arcanists.

The Resurrectionists:
Offense: devastating in close combat, limited ranged attacks, they are also quite slow in general
Defense: While they are easy to hit, the armor provided by their dead flesh makes them hard to wound and even harder to kill (in fact some models in the faction are impossible to kill for good). They are the most resilient faction both physically and psychologically
Magic: As keeping undead moving takes a constant magical toll, the masters have a considerable ability to manipulate and use their magic, as their undead are destroyed, their magic is freed up to either create more, or unleash a vast array of rather disturbing spells. These spells tend to focus on manipulating physical bodies, either through decay or the transfer of life.


The Arcanists:
Offense: The best ranged attacks and magics in the game, and while they are rather poor at close range, they have their constructs and occasional magically enhanced minion to protect them. They are also rather slow, and need to use their magic to avoid being overrun.
Defense: Also generally poor unless they manage to get off their defensive spells before an attack, in which case they can become as difficult to kill as a resurrectionist.
Magic: Good in both starting magical resources and regeneration they have the most magical options at their disposal. They can use this magic to create and animate minions, offensively or defensively augment themselves, or for a vast array of spells which include the most deadly ranged attacks in the game.


The Neverborn:
Offense: Generally poor both at ranged and close combat attacks, but what they lack in strength, they make up for in speed, both foot speed and the speed at which they can attack.
Defense: While they are generally the most difficult creatures to hit, they are quite fragile, and are wounded and killed relatively easily if you can manage to catch them.
Magic: While they start with very few magical resources, they generate the most throughout the course of the game due to their innate connection to the lands of Malifaux. Every neverborn possesses magical abilities and have a number of spells on hand. These spells tend to focus on speed, trickery and illusions to confuse and terrorize their opponents. The most powerful can destroy their opponents without ever being seen, and without even having to make an attack themselves.


The Mercenaries:
Offense: Generally good both ranged and in melee combat, and they are generally quite quick.
Defense: Their hard earned cash they don't spend on weapons they spend on armor. They are both hard to hit and hard to kill!
Magic: Generally rather poor as they aren't aligned with any of the inherent powers of Malifaux. While they are able to manipulate these magics on a rudimentary level, they will never master any one of them like the power casters in the other factions.
Other: Mercenaries may be hired by other factions as they are willing to work for anyone who can pay them enough to make it worth their while. They also can form a group of their own following a powerful mercenary master.

[demonherald]

sweet and interesting.. I've chosen neverborn as my own personal initial favourites and the summary there confirms I've made a good choice suiting how I like to play and may require a little more thinking how to use effectively..
Witch hunters second so interesting to read this. cheers.

[Tenebræ]

Oooo pretty. I like this. Atm my tastes have been guild and arcanists. After this... they are still guild and arcanists... lol. But mercs will be intresting. I might make a merc force, probably under leveticus, but we will see with the rules. Very intresting overall.

[EricJ]

Feel free to ask any questions you might have on this subject here as well!

[Larkin Vain]

This is a really good write up. Thank you very much.

[redstripe]

I've been very curious about this kind of document, as well. At my drafting firm, we call this a design document. Anytime we make a change to a design, we go back to the design document to make sure we're still in line with our original vision. This will be a powerful tool, going forward, as new members are designed.

I have a few questions in regards to magics in a way to expand the document.

In each of the different factions do spells tend to be:
Direct attacks?
Buff Enchantments of allies?
Debfuff Enchantments on enemies?
Terrain/Tabletop affecting spells?

For example are Arcanists Powerful wizards because they blast their enemies with powerful attacks or because they buff their allies with powerful enhancements (like setting their weapons of fire?)

[EricJ]

that is a nice way to break things down, and for your specific example, the Arcanists are powerful because #1 their direct magical attacks, #2 ability to create constructs to use as minions, powered by magic, #3 long term buff enchantments in the way of creating magical items for their allies (like Joss' axes).

[Tenebræ]

Ok question... With such abilities such as the arcanists have that create reinforcments out of thin air and the rezzurectionists really hard to kill stuff and even things that may be "unkillable", how do you "Win" a game? Will it be objective based (capture this gazmo, blow up that widget, steal this whojit, protect that hoopla, ect.)? Will it be kill the head honcho (leader of the opposing force)?, Will there be no winner or loser because we are really shooting bullets of tickles, slashing with swords of funnyness and killjoy... he doesn't want to eat you... just hug you.

[thetang22]

In regards to Mercenaries - how will troop rank affect the ability to be hired into a warband?

I think the e-zine #2 said something along the lines of each basic sized warband following the "1 Master/1 Henchman/3-4 rank-and-file" setup. Certain mercenaries are going to be of differing ranks I suppose, so will they only be able to be hired in to fill those slots?

What about 'Master' Mercenaries? Will they be able to be hired or will they be restricted to Mercenary-only warbands?

Does the Master of an warband determine the faction of the warband? Can you have a warband with a Guild Master and everyone else be a Mercenary?

What are the standard limits on # of Mercenaries you can hire for a non-Mercenary warband?

[TheBugKing]

To expand on thetang22's question:
Will there be skermishes with more then one Master to a side?
Something along the lines of 2 masters 2 henchmen 6-8 rank and file organised as
master-henchmen-rank and file
master-henchmen-rank and file

How much flexibility will there be in force organisation?

[EricJ]

good questions, let me see if I can work through them.

#1) how do you win a game with all these special abilities in play

Winning conditions will be very well defined and there is not going to be anything nerfed down to make Malifaux a happier kinder place. In fact, quite the opposite will be the limiting factor. For example, McMourning can build flesh constructs, but to do so he must collect body parts from his enemies, as they don't just grow on trees. He (and his henchman Sebastian) will have special abilities to sever limbs and such to this end. So he can't just do it at will. Models that can't be "killed" will still have built in conditions under which they are considered dead for the purposes of game play, even if not removed from the table. There will also be games based on other goals, as you mentioned, which have nothing to do with killing off all the other side, and as such these special abilities won't come into play when determining winner and loser.

#2) how will Mercenaries count in warband construction?

Yes, mercenaries will play roles of Henchmen, Minions or Constructs in game play, however the rules aren't so strictly defined as a warband must have 1 Master, 1 Henchman, 3-4 Minions. It is true all starting warbands will be based around 1 Master, who is powerful enough to hire, or build his own warband and as such the warband is based around his abilites and resources. Mercenaries are hired based on what they're paid, and care less what role they play in a warband, and while they can be very useful, their relative cost will be higher than those models closely aligned with the master. As such, while you can have a Guild master and an all mercenary warband, it would likely be quite difficult to play.

#3) What determines the faction of a warband

it is the master. Masters are those individuals who are able to influence everything around them, including the flow of magic in the area and everyone brought into the field of battle is there at the will, and due to the resources of the masters.

#4) Will there be larger games?

Yes, although this is still in development we are looking closely at ways to scale up the size of games in 2 ways. First would be in the resources of each master, which would allow 1 master to hire more henchmen, minions, constructs and mercenaries. The second way would be with cooperating masters from the same faction. There will not be cooperation with masters from different factions however, except perhaps Mercenary. While we are focusing right now on the details of the small skirmish game based on these smaller warbands we've been building, we are keeping a keen eye not to inhibit our ability to ramp up the game to a larger scale once we are able to focus on that aspect of things.

#5) How much flexibility will there be in force organization?

Quite a bit but within limits. As I stated before, there will not be, except in very rare instances, any mixing between factions. Within factions you are much more free with your selections. However there are practical and thematic rules in place which make may influence you to choose certain combinations, but this is not restrictive. The best example is that while a master can select any faction henchman, there will be ones which will work to augment their abilities. Like I mentioned above, Sebastian has the ability to help collect body parts for McMourning, so he can create flesh constructs, which is something he won't find in any other henchman. Minions will be similar, as their abilities tend to augment or are powered by a specific master.

In terms of force organization, once you get past the master, the title of henchman and minion tends to be much more of a descriptive term, rather than a strict rule term. Henchmen are more powerful and have more abilities but are also more specialized and cost much more than minions, so balancing between Henchmen, Minions, Constructs, and Mercenaries (and Avatars?) will be strictly up to the player, and how the player chooses to spend the Masters resources.

Hope this helps!

[Tenebræ]

Ok your answers prompt another question in me. Throwing words and phrases around like "Warband" "Resources" and "Master" reminds me a lot of Mordhiem and Necromunda (Which were arguably two of the best games GW ever produced). Will there be any plans for a sort of "Fire and forget" campaign akin to what Mordhiem and Necromunda had.

[EricJ]

It looks like my early gaming roots are betrayed by my terminology! Those are the first 2 skirmish type games I played :D

As for the "fire and forget" you'll have to remind me, I can't remember the details there to give you a proper answer.

[Tenebræ]

Ahh ok. The Fire and forget campaign is my terminology (I think anyway). Basicaly it means like when you would assemble your warband and your friends would assemble theirs, then you would start a campaign with no real DM or person running it. The objective was simple, survive. It was great because it would run itself. So you assembled your warbands, then you played games, then depending on what happened to your dudes in the games, your warband would develop on its own. The developments would be completly random and determined by dice rolls. Basicaly it went sort of like this... We have Leader A, a young noble running around, commanding men. Then we have subordanite officer B who has been around longer. In thier adventures, Leader A is... well to be honest he is stupid and unlucky (he is a noble after all). So lets say the first game this happens: He runs out waving his broadsword around and gets shot in the face with an arrow. He goes "out of action". Leader B who earned his title and is in general, smarter about the ways of battle, rallys the existing forces and goes out to win the game. After the game is over you do a post game phase (usualy while being watched by your opponent to ensure honesty). Now Leader A has had a very bad day. He needs to roll on the "Out of Action" table (because he went out of action) with results ranging from "Dead" to "Captured" to "Various injuries" to "Escaped". For the sake of example, because he was shot in the face, we rolled "lost an eye" (which was an actual result). Now in all the games he participates in from now on he will be missing an eye and thus will permenantly loose accuracy with range weapons. Since he went out of action, he does not get any experience. Now Officer B has just won the day. He gets experience, every so many points he gets to roll on the "advance" table. The advance table can give you anything from new skills to improved stats.
So going back to my original question, will Malifaux have anything like this? If not, will you consider this kind of format for future releases?
While it would be difficult to make this kind of format it would be totaly awesome.

[EricJ]

At the moment, this is another area in which I have to say were not yet developing, however we're developing with it in mind, so leaving that door open at the moment. The real issue is that it would take much more testing and more importantly TIME, which would of course cause delays. So essentially we're working to balance out the goal of fitting as much interesting bits into the game while keeping in mind we would like to release the game at some point soon as well. I think that even if this does not make the first book, it will be included in future supplements as it is really too good of a idea to pass on for our size of game.

[thetang22]

It sounds very similar to Rackham's "Dogs of War" supplement they had for Confrontation before the new version of Confrontation with the plastics came around. Basically just an ongoing campaign in which the results from game to game actually affect your warband. And yes, I agree its a good idea.

[TheBugKing]

My only issue with that type of thing is the WYSIWYG complication.
I never got into Necromunda or Mordheim because the models could constantly be changing and could never be truly WYSIWYG, or if they were it wasn't for long.

Unless the changes to the characters was a stat change only. I personally prefer the non changing systems as it always starts everyone on a level playing field. The contest then becomes one of tactics and luck.

[goblyn13]

I think it can be done right by limiting the changing parts strictly to the campaign play. Not unlike the Warjack/warbeast bonds where its a little boost but nothing game breaking (so you don't end up playing against MinMaximus).

The advantage to campaign play is that it does give the effect that your characters are evolving (just make sure you realize that the special abilities aren't guaranteed to your character.

[Tenebræ]

I'll agree with the WYSIWIG comment. Though atm all the figues in malifaux seem to have their own equipment with some minor differences (witchling stalkers for ex. one is shown equiped with pistol and sword, while one has two swords, and a third just has a sword, bayou gremlins are another, two have guns, one has a looking glass and the third has booze and a banjo). Though if the advances/disadvances were kept to abilities, spells and perhaps minor physical changes (i.e. loss of an eye, "weak" limbs, ect.) it could be done fairly well. While buying new weapons might be out, buying small expendable gains (larger soul stones for better magic, sharpening and honing weapons for the next game for a slight boost in damage, one use talismans that allow you to redraw a card perhaps).
Anyway it would be intresting to see what you could come up with.

[EricJ]

The idea of Malifaux is that EVERYTHING is in some way or another influenced or powered or enhanced by magic. In terms of an ongoing campaign the WYSIWYG issues don't apply quite so much here. It's won't be an increase in equipment which will influence a characters abilities, but rather their ability to influence and use magic. Additional spells, additional abilities, etc...and of course enhanced statistics.

Anyway, like I said, it's likely not going to be in the initial release, but I have pages of notes on it, and once we are able, we will be making a supplement to support this. We have a few ideas for more "advanced" malifaux in the works, but of course they all build upon the basic system, which is what we're focused on right now :D

[Keltheos]

And, hey, long coats, flowing dresses and big top hats hide all sorts of WYSIWYG gear. ;)

"The bazooka? It's in the hat."

[TheBugKing]

The idea of Malifaux is that EVERYTHING is in some way or another influenced or powered or enhanced by magic. In terms of an ongoing campaign the WYSIWYG issues don't apply quite so much here. It's won't be an increase in equipment which will influence a characters abilities, but rather their ability to influence and use magic. Additional spells, additional abilities, etc...and of course enhanced statistics.

Anyway, like I said, it's likely not going to be in the initial release, but I have pages of notes on it, and once we are able, we will be making a supplement to support this. We have a few ideas for more "advanced" malifaux in the works, but of course they all build upon the basic system, which is what we're focused on right now

I would play I a campaign system like this although I find that even with the Warjack bonds that happen with Warmachine I tend to forget to keep track of them. Or my jacks die as soon as they get a bond. I'm a firm believer in throw away troops. Nothing like claiming victory over the dead bodies of your comrades. (I play Cryx so they were dead to begin with! <best of both worlds>)

[Tenebræ]

Ok another question. In relation to me previous statment. Some of the minions have different equipment from each other (witchlings and gremlins). Gamewise how will this be handled? Will it be the equivilent to wargear, so when I buy a witchling, I can decide to give it two swords, one sword and one pistol or just a sword, or perhaps magic abilities? Will there be prebuild loadouts ala Infinity where they are all mentioned with the same profile, but their cost will depend on the equipment? Is there a wyrder way of doing it that I have not mentioned?

[TheBugKing]

perhaps you recruit the minions in pre set allotments so that each has their won individual stats? That would certainly be a new wrinkle that has not been done before and would lend quite a bit to the tactical challenge presented by the game. Especially if the group of minions had interrelated abilities that fell off as members died or were put out of action.

/ramble

[Tenebræ]

Ok new question. I was thinking back to the card decks after reading "Bayou twocard". Are there or will there be any wyrd card games (not CCG, but like poker or blackjack, but wyrder) that would ever be made to thematicaly fit with the cards that Wyrd is putting out?

[Nathan Caroland]

Interesting question, and personally, not one that I've thought of though it does capture my interest.

Not a card player myself in the least though I suppose it is something down the road that some enterprising individual might be able to slap together.

[redstripe]

It was my intent to make the Wyrd deck of cards a character in that story. I think you'll probably see other characters playing and using that deck in the future.

I think you'd probably get some wyrd (har har) looks if you tried to wager your spleen during a card game, though.

[Keltheos]

A card game where you and your opponents all play as "Hags" betting on body parts. Object of the game? Get a set of everything (or a set of pairs/triples) before 'betting the corpse' away.

[Nathan Caroland]

Oooh ... oooh!

:D

[Keltheos]

Idea handed onward. ;)

[goblyn13]

kinda like Poker meets Operation?

[Keltheos]

Heh, sorta. More like the parts they've gathered from past players (like the poor sod in the Ante story) are all piled together for a big game where the winner takes the parts for her own purposes or assembles some sort of golem...

[Tenebræ]

So then, the winner would be the first person to get all of someone elses organs and all of their own?

[Keltheos]

Something like that, or one of everything (start out with a mix of stuff - chits or something with a body part listed on them).

Hadn't really thought any more than the above about it. ;)

[jwatto1]

that would be usefull for resurectionists :D

[TheBugKing]

A fun derivative for the Neverborn would be to bet humans that have been captured. Food is always fun to play with!

[Huffdogg]

If the Guild subfactions are tooled up to combat specific other main factions, how do you avoid creating a balance issue whereby, f'rinstance, Ortegas are nasty vs. Neverborn but blowey vs. Arcanists?

[invictus]

IMO, it is lot balanced in start because you have so many different values on a cards, even more than on a 2d6 because here you can get 2-14, and there 2-12.

This came from a man who only saw video presentation of Malifaux, so please don't take this for granted...

[thetang22]

IMO, it is lot balanced in start because you have so many different values on a cards, even more than on a 2d6 because here you can get 2-14, and there 2-12.

This came from a man who only saw video presentation of Malifaux, so please don't take this for granted...



I think what Huffdog is getting at is that each of the Guild factions have certain abilities that are supposedly targeted at being good against one of the other factions (and in essence, meaning they should have weaknesses to counter that inherent bonus they have against the given faction).

So, as far as balance concerns - it makes you wonder if they do have these bonuses (paired with weaknesses to balance out), are they going to be balanced overall compared to ALL the factions?

Lets say the the Ortega's go into a match against the Neverborn and stomp them because they are geared to do well against them, but then their next match is against the Arcanists who in turn smash them because the Ortega's aren't geared to go against the Arcanists. How will it be balanced in that effect? Anybody playing a Guild warband could never expect to win against anything other than the faction they are geared against.

It all depends on these advantages they are given (and whether they are given a disadvantage to counter). You would think to keep them capable against factions other than their target faction you would have to eliminate the disadvantage, but then that raises the question of - is it fair that they are given a certain advantage without a disadvantage to balance?

I wonder though, because in one of the videos Eric mentions that the Guild is currently overpowered (or he at least hints at it).

[absolute_d]

Well in any given situation, you have force compositions that do well against one type but poorly against another. The Guild subfactions just become a more in-depth level of that type of interaction.

Should my Death Marshals have a tougher time against the Neverborn? I like the idea honestly. I have ot change my tactics, my force build (when I've got that option with more model choices) and my thought process to win the game. Do I think it's fair? Hell yea I do, because the Resurrectionist player I'm facing is gonna have the same disatvantage when facing me.

Currently it plays out well:

Death Marshals vs Resurrectionist - DM advantage
Death Marshals vs other faction - other faction advantage
Death Marshals vs other faction - par or no advantage

So you build in an advantage with one faction and a disadvantage to another with parity on the third. The one thing this will affect later on is future factions or sub-factions if they happen.

It creates a depth that currently IMO is not out there with any game, plus you have to actually spend some time thinking a little bit about force comp and tactics. Not only do you have to think about how you're going to play your preferred faction type, but you need to start giving more thought to the type of faction you know you have trouble overcoming. You can't just cheeze your way to a win, 'specially in a tourney format.

For example, let's say you have difficulty playing against a trixy fast army...so clearly Neverborn are going ot be your Nemesis in this game, but you don't like the Ortega's and wanna play the Witchhunters. But the Witchhunters have disadvantage against the Neverborn (they don't really as far as I know, I'm making an example here), you now have to totally rethink any stratagy you might be running with Witchhunters when you face the Neverborn, or you may not even play that faction at all when you see them hit the table...damn Neverborn...well time to dig out my Arcanists. :P

It adds a completely new set of twists to a lot of things in my opinion. The inverse however should apply to the other factions - Neverborn are hunted by Ortegas and have disadvantage, but excel against the Witchhunters and are on par with the Death Marshals for example. This does however mean that future factions if any will have to be released in pairs, and on par with current factions and at a disadvantage with future factions...but that's a whole nother can o' worms to explore. :)


Oz

[Huffdogg]

It's interesting, certainly, but it speaks of poor overall game balance. The entire theory of game design and game balance usually hinges on the idea that if the game is properly balanced, players of equal skill should have even odds of winning against one another with any intelligently assembled force. Making one inherently weaker against a certain type of force and stronger against another isn't balance, it's mirror-image imbalance.

[absolute_d]

Well...we could hinge the entire game off of one force...lets say we chose the Spac...er Neverborn, and then we do our best to make every other force in the game kinda competitive against them.

I understand what you are saying, but even in a game that's as borken as WM/Hordes, there is no specific balancing. Each faction in the game has it's own rules for development, the points cost for a unit of Cygnarans is not directly comparable to a unit of Khadorans or Cryx...let alone anything in Hordes. Do you think the game has great overall balance? I love the game but I know for a fact it doesn't, the power swing there is ever changing but it still wreakes of imbalance. But I'll take a game of WarMachine/Hordes over Infinity anyday (which is quite possibly the most balanced mini game I've ever played and boring as hell).

Same can be said of any game outside of chess or Risk or Stratego. Once you start adding multiple levels of variables, abilities and game effects your actual ability to give a system 'overall balance' is incredibly difficult. It becomes a mathmatical equation that will make most Statistics Professors sick to their stomachs. I do understand and can relate to the entire theory of game design, but the one problem with it is that it's theory.

To me a game system ultimately is interesting or it's not. Outlandish balance issues are a problem, but small advantages here and disadvantages there make for a more varied field of play, not an unbalanced one in my opinion. I see your point and can understand the concerns, but if it can be pulled off so it's not a game swinging balance issue, it makes the game itself that much more interesting and fun.

It'll be a fine line to walk and a tough one to pull off I'm sure, but to me it makes perfect sense and would make for a completely unique gaming experience if executed well.

We'll see!

Oz

[Huffdogg]

I think that back when WM was balanced, it was good. Half the reason it is lame now is because overdevelopment has wrecked the nice, even footing it began with. And Hordes...pfffft. That game reeked from the start. It's about as fair and balanced as Fox News. I've never played Infinity, but that's mostly because it never could get my attention, so I can't say I'm surprised that it is boring to play.

I'm not trying to soapbox and say that I'm the authority on game design or anything, and I can certainly agree that there is a place in every game for certain combinations of abilities to have an edge against certain other units. That's what makes force creation part of the art of the game, and that's great. All I'm saying is that if the edge is too significant against specific other forces, in a game with as few models as Malifaux is purported to use, it can be a HUGE factor. Now I don't even know that this is a real concern; that's why I asked the question. The focus of each of the Guild subfactions may exist in fluff alone, with no rules kick in any direction. But IMO if it's a strong enough sway one way or the other in the rules, it's the kind of thing that can ruin any sort of organized play.

[Jabberwocky]

I have thoroughly enjoyed watching this discussion develop! I do have to toss in my two cents, though. Equality in gaming I believe is extremely difficult to achieve and truly only possible if opposing pieces are the same as in chess, for example. In a game such as this, I suppose it would be possible to change the name of the attack, but make it the same damage as a piece of equal value. For example (theoretically speaking as I have not been a part of the beta), while the witchlings use a pistol and sword for ranged and HTH attacks, the Neverborn tots use small spells and claws. Both sides are "different" but the value of the attack or effect would be the same.

I think more gamers would find this "boring" than not. That being said, the card playing aspect of the game may add some variability to it, although again for parity, all card values would need to be identical.

Obviously, great discrepancy is not wanted. However, life is not always balanced. Even in "real life" there is some degree of rock-paper-scissors. Archers will likely trounce footsloggers at distance. If the swordsman can close the gap, the archers will scatter. Cavalry have certain advantages in certain situations, but are weak against a wall of spearman.

Just a bit of rambling early in the morning...hopefully I have made sense (not yet had any coffee...)

[Hinton]

@ JW: how do you function without coffee so early in the morning?? Man, I need my cuppa right away.

Like Jabber, I've been following this discussion as well and it's interesting to see the different takes and points-of-view on everything.

Discussion is always good; please keep it up!

Without giving too much away (and FF or Eric can always add to - or subtract from - this if they want), as far as Malifaux gameplay goes, things aren't going to be severely unbalanced. You won't see one faction simply crushing another. There are "faction" bonuses, so some factions/groups will fare better against a certain faction/group; against other factions, they'll do ok. It may not be "perfectly" balanced and that's a good thing because, as some have pointed out, it could simply lead to boring gameplay; kind of like a large, expensive game of Tic-Tac-Toe (although a very pretty version of it).

Some factions may be at a slight disadvantage when facing others, but that's where strategy comes into play. This isn't going to simply be a "go out there and pound on the opponent" (aka "hack-and-slash") type of game. I highly doubt that you're going to see any one faction with such an advantage over another that it become impossible to win against them, but you will probably need to think about your attacks/strategy beforehand.

Again, keep up the discussion! Wonderful stuff!

[thetang22]

It adds a completely new set of twists to a lot of things in my opinion. The inverse however should apply to the other factions - Neverborn are hunted by Ortegas and have disadvantage, but excel against the Witchhunters and are on par with the Death Marshals for example. This does however mean that future factions if any will have to be released in pairs, and on par with current factions and at a disadvantage with future factions...but that's a whole nother can o' worms to explore. :)

The catch though, is that it has never been stated that anybody other than the Guild was going to be designed around the faction advantages/disadvantages (at least I don't think it has been stated, I could be wrong). The whole idea of the Guild design was that the certain warbands were going to have advantages over a certain other faction.

It also would sorta make sense to have the rock-paper-scissor balancing to the Guild, but it has never been stated that they would be strong against one faction, equal with another, and weak against the other - it has only been stated that they were going to have advantages against a particular faction. That is what has me confused. If it has been stated otherwise, please correct me so I don't continue thinking the wrong thing.

[absolute_d]

@Huff - I for certain do not thing you're soapboxing. Granted I don't know you as well as Kel or some of the other SD's but I do know you and very much respect what you have to say. By all means, please continue.

@thetang22 - from as much as I know (I'm not in the beta, and have only as much info as you) you are correct. There was never any mention of the Guild factions having any disadvantages or parity with other warbands, only that they have certain gains over certain factions. But if that is solely the case, I will definitely through my hat in with Huff and stress my concerns on competitive game play and balance. If there's not a mitigation to factions balance, then it simply has an advantage over every other faction period.

If my Death Marshals have bonuses vs the Resurrectionists and nothing else and suffer no penalties, then they are better than every other faction. Period. Same applies with the Ortegas, and the Witchhunters. Even though they have bonuses against other factions, they are still better than every other faction. Make sense? Unless you make the power level of the Neverborn, Arcanists and Resurrections higher than the Guild factions to begin with, you're always going to have balance issues. And if that's the case you're going to have balance issues with the Guild being inherently weaker to offset the advantage they are given over their 'target factions'. So the need for mirror-image balance is kinda needed in my opinion. Can it work? Yes I believe it can, but there's a fine line to it. Can it screw things up? Wanna play Hordes? I'm a Circle player. :P Warmachine? I started with Khador. :) Like Huff said, WM used to balanced and had a good flow to it. Now there's sooooo many extra rules, tryin to remember what every unit in the game can do, impossible. So like I said previously there is a fine line that will have to be walked for this type of balance as it can spiral out of control and become a nightmare for the development team and the players.

Of coarse all this is pure conjecture on my part. I do know that EricJ and FF follow these threads like crazy and creation comes from discussion and brainstorming. I know that the more ideas we add, the easier it is to solve any potential issues that arise. How many times have you heard or read 'I never thought of that' when having a discussion? It's a great tool and I welcome all counter points to any opinions I make.

So please, add your thoughts, ideas and opinions to further the discussion and help where we can!


Oz

[demonherald]

I think the whole structure of the game and the cards counters a lot of the potential problems with imbalance and introducing multiple rules to face differing opponents as the suits of the cards can be called the bare mechanics, Then introducing the whole advantages and disadvantages to various races can be quite easily and unclumsily handled by tailoring the deck and using that element..
As there is no straight up dice rolling it takes out a lot of the usual complications in my eyes...The deck itself becoming as integral to the whole warband composition as the characters chosen.. In Most games the dice are used without thought as a mechanical tool leading to the element of chance always being there ,, The cards will require thinking and an extra element of strategy no matter what the advantages/disadvantages of a particular group.
The aim throughout and part of the reason that occasionally things may seem slow ( face it we're all impatient in this hobby .. not hearing anything in a day feels slow) is to keep the whole balance throughout the system so things are getting torn apart put together rejigged and the like so keep discussing away it's interesting to see the different views...

[TheBugKing]

Drawing on what you just said Demonherald, will certain factions be able to remove suits from their deck effectively increasing their chance of drawing on suit cards?
That would be a very interesting mechanic. It's basically like removing all the 1's on the D6's you use.

I personally like the current imbalances that WM and Hordes has. I am an avid Magic The Gathering player as well though and the thought of memorizing less then 300 different cards is quite easy for me. Try over 150,000! (I play Legacy as my preferred MTG format.)

I think you can actually get away with giving the guild warbands slight advantages over their respective targets if you make their over all point cost slightly higher. I'll happily play at a "disadvantage" against the guild if they have fewer starting resources then I do. That will also, neatly, bring the necessary, slight (stressing slight) disadvantage against the non target factions. It would also put the guild at parity against other guild warbands.

I am strongly for the built in imbalance. It adds spice to the tactical situations you face. You know at the outset that you are going to have to outplay someone who has the warband that targets you from the outset. You will know that you have a slight advantage against someone who doesn't. Both pieces of information will influence how you play and both can easily lead to a win or loss. I have seen many Circle players lose to Khador because they come to the table in a cocky fashion, knowing that they have a distinct advantage on paper. That doesn't necessarily translate to an advantage on the table though.

(For those that are curious, I play Cryx. I don't think we are at a disadvantage to any one so the above argument may be moot. <grin>)

[absolute_d]

I too play MtG...not as much as I used, I'm a very very casual player now, but at one time I have a full set of beta and an additional play set of the big 9/10. If all I had to do was remember 300 cards...not a problem, hell even 300 plainswalkers would be doable. It don't quite translate like that for WM/Hordes, when there are single models out there that have 10 cards worth of rules on them, you've scaled into a different realm. On top of that you've got 50+ pages of just errata and faq. Oiy. But I understand what you're saying there.

I agree though, I like the thought of imbalance. It elevates the game play IMO at more competitive levels. I dont know if removing a suit from the deck for a faction is what they have in mind, but I could be wrong of coarse. The staggered benefits of what I listed above should be easy enough to work in as a blanket type system. Such as:

+1 to hit vs your advantage
-1 to hit vs your disadvantage

Granted that's a very simplified dumbed down version, but I'm sure you get what I'm saying. It could also be a built in 'Master' mechanic where your chosen Master has a different set of bonuses/penalties to the cross faction line up. That would allow even more strategic depth to army build and selection. Where as something akin to this:

I choose The Judge as my Master, and his bonuses vs the Resurrectionists give my warband a higher chance of doing critical damage and causing them to go out of action quicker, but in return I have the same problem against me with The Arcanist - their magic now has more chance of causing crit damage to me.

Or

I choose Lady Justice as my Master and her benefit vs Resurrectionists is a higher chance to nullify attacks from them against me (so she increased my defensive power) but then against Arcanists the inverse is true, they hit me easier.

Now this gives me a number of options in warband build and it forces me to think and strategize about facing certain opponents. If I take The Judge, I want to have some guys who can fire off multiple attacks each round thereby increasing my chances that I do score a crit, but I also need to take guys with really high defense or agility skills to mitigate getting hit. Where with Lady Justice I want to capitolize on the fact that my def/ag is higher, but also need to keep in mind that I need some high armor to survive a battle against an Arcanist force.

It forces me to think on multiple levels before I even start considering any type of 'synergy' benefits my models may give one another.


Oz

[Huffdogg]

All good points raised here. It sounds like the advantages that the guild subfactions have versus other specific factions are minor, and nothing that would/should worry me. That makes me :). I'm still torqued that I failed to demo the game at GenCon. :(

[EricJ]

well, I haven't really wanted to chime in here because I enjoyed the conversation and speculation, however I suppose I can give just a little insight into the guild.

The first idea that we tried to portray is that the hunters started to take on a little bit of a look of those they hunted, so the death marshals are thin and almost skeletal, the witchlings are robed, etc...and that carries over into the rules as well. Some of the advantages that the different guild groups have is that they've learned some of the tricks of those they hunt, so you may see a theme in the ortegas that they may have some elements of their play style which mimics the neverborn, etc...

Yes, there will be some abilities which do give tangible benefits against their hunted factions, which in many ways is a built in imbalance as mentioned. However in Malifaux, I think you'll find that the different factions are not simply 1 trick pony's, and given the number of spells and abilities at the disposal of your warbands, there will be many strategies which one can use to get around this imbalance. The idea is that the Ortega's have an advantage against 1 or 2 of the many tricks the neverborn have, and knowing that, the neverborn player will have to adjust their strategy to compensate.

The down side of this, which in some ways does give them a disadvantage against everyone else is that some of the abilities/spells of each guild group are focused on 1 faction, and may be useless against other factions, leaving them a few less tricks up their sleeve when dealing with them.

So you see, it's not simply a function of Ortegas get +2 on draws against all neverborn, but rather the themes are built into the rules, abilities, and spells of the ortega models.

I hope that helps while still remaining appropriately vague :D

[Huffdogg]

That is pretty much how I was desperately hoping to find out it would work. ;)

[TheBugKing]

That is pretty much how I was desperately hoping to find out it would work. ;)

Agreed.
The tidbit definately bolstered my confidence in the game mechanics.
Thanks!

[Night Hunter]

So you see, it's not simply a function of Ortegas get +2 on draws against all neverborn, but rather the themes are built into the rules, abilities, and spells of the ortega models.



So would one of these advantages be Nino's "Boomer" rounds from the Ortega story in the Wyrd Chronicles? I have been guessing as to what one would be, thinking it is a soulstone bullet of some type.....

[herkon]

Very informativ summary to get a taste of the party skills, many thanks ! :)

Currently Mercenaries seems to be the most balanced fraction if the poor magic will not become a major disatvantage !?

[Nathan Caroland]

Oh I wouldn't say magic is poor ... its rather abundant in Malifaux and Masters wield it with rather lethal efficiency.

[herkon]

Sorry for this missunderstanding, I meant the magic of merchanary fraction only (is described as poor in the initiatory descripton of the five fractions).

[Ivellis]

The Guild seems most to my playstyle, but I'll probably try out everyone as is customary for my gaming group.

[Scorpio]

The Guild seems most to my playstyle, but I'll probably try out everyone as is customary for my gaming group.

I've only just gone through one test game, but regardless of the other factions, I doubt I will be able to resist the awesomeness of the Guild. So many groovy models, and a playstyle that's up my alley...

[Soliok]

The Guild sounds interesting. I'll have to take a closer look.

[joshuaslater]

One thing about living in a free society is that I can choose to spend all my cash and just buy all the factions. I'm pretty fired up about this game.

[Merry_HangedMan]

As I realised from sudying "starter" sets - each contains Master, his Henchman and 3 minons. The only "starter" wich is different from others is Ortegas. Or some of the Ortegas will be treated like a minion?

[TheBugKing]

All but one of the non master Ortegas will be minions. For the moment any way. Things are in flux at the moment. There are a lot of things to work out still and as the Alpha team feeds stuff to the Beta team and we break it things change again. Over the past few months there has been some amazing progress. I think we are all proud of the product so far and every one on each team is really striving to make the game the absolute best it can be.

Unfortunately it is still a ways off from being complete. I can say that it is an absolute blast to play. The Arcanists are easily the best faction to play as well. Don't bother looking at the other factions. They are weak and all losers! (Follow the AARG link. I don't actually mean that. :D)

[Keltheos]

Back in yer cage, TBK!!

[TheBugKing]

Ok.

Let's get something straight here. I am allowed out for 3 hours every odd week. If you don't allow for that time I'll quit! Then where will you be Hmm??

[Keltheos]

Not 3 consecutive hours...didn't you get the memo? :)