Iron Painter Photos - to reveal or not.

[Ben$quig]

I think that the Iron Painter piccies should be kept from general viewing until the deadline is passed. Then ALL entries are revealed, one photo each, at the same time; judges can compare, comments and smack talk can be made and no-one will flake-out, psych-out or whatever...

My two bits.

BenSquig

[Ritual]

As a judge, especially in these early rounds when the number of entries is high, it helps to see some of the entries early instead of seeing all at once. The amount of work to judge everything as fairly and consistently as possible can be quite overwhelming, so anything that helps spreading the work load over a slightly longer time is much appreciated.

[Thryth]

@Ben$quig I agree with the other Wyrd contests being that way, but IP seems to be the opposite. Works-in-Progress are encouraged, you know who is in the contest, etc. I like both contests having their own, unique feel.

For what it's worth, one of the things I like about the other Wyrd contests, as apposed to most other ones, is the anonymity and see them after the deadline approach.

[Hinton]

@Ben: I can kind of understand where you're coming from, but I like being able to see the other entries in the Iron Painter. Sure, a person can get a bit intimidated, but shouldn't that be the catalyst to push yourself even harder? If people get scared off because they happen to see a WIP from their opponent, then it's not very iron, is it?

As with all contests, a person should just try to do their best while pushing their limits and moving outside of the "comfort zone".

And I do agree with Thryth: the other contests (FF, RH, etc) should keep the entries hidden and anonymous since voting for those are open to the public; IP rests in the hands of a few people that are neutral in the matter.

Just my opinion.

[supervike]

I appreciate the idea Ben, and who knows, if enough folks like that thought, I can certainly set it up that way.

But, as the main impetus of this contest was community building, I thought anonymity isn't conducive to that.

For instance, the Wyrd Painting Contests (femme fatale, total testosterone, etc.) all use anonymity, and until the contest is over everything is hush hush. That has its merits, but I like the fact that one painter can see what the other is doing.

For me, it really has the vibe of my old High School Art Class. While we were working on a project, we could freely associate with our classmates, share thoughts, ideas, just BS with one another. At the end, when we all had finished projects, there was a very cool sense of kinship with all the projects. Thats exactly how I see the Iron Painter.....

But, just as a note to everyone...I completely encourage you to tell me what you like or don't like about the Iron Painter....I' m interested in hearing all about it, positive or negative.

[demonherald]

flaking out and getting psyched out are what the competition is all about..
anonymity is great in other comps but this is Iron Painter.. If anything I think extra points should be given for WIP's early entry etc all adding to the iron of it.. 2 weeks is a tight deadline for most and the whole comp builds into a pressure steamer.. The further you go the shorter those dealines seem.....The extra element of an opponent apparently cruising while you struggle or strugglig when your happy or a shared struggle all adds to the fun nature of the comp.....
also it can be helpful as a gague of what is required.. I know last IP I would have been knocked out in the first round if it wasn't for WIP's by other entrants causing me to make the decision to expand my basing and setting...

[Dragonforge]

I disagree, as a competitor Im not going to show my hand until the last minute. Plus as a photographer I pretty much suck so getting good pictures of my work is an event in itself. Now if my opponents want to show their hand and post their work all be it, its their fault if I beat them by one upping their work.

Nothing says you need to post your entry until the last moment and as you can see by the first round entries most didn't post their work until hours before deadline making it virtually impossible for an opponent to one up anyone.

[Wren]

I just want to let sv know that I'm fine with IP the way it's structured as far as this goes. I like that it's different to a lot of other contests in the non-anonymity and people being able to post stuff prior to the end date. The psychological aspects of IP are part of what makes it very interesting and different - competing only against one person at a time, the marathon not a sprint aspect, surviving the long wait between submission and judges' scoring.

Maybe it'd be helpful for new participants to have some kind of summary of past seasons somewhere. While it's going to be the case that the last two rounds are going to come down to pretty talented folks, the three or four rounds preceeding them can go surprising ways. I've seen award-winning talented painters knocked out in round one or two and dark horse painters get much further than I'll bet they thought they would. A stunning paint job that doesn't impress the judges in terms of how it meets theme might not progress past a more modest one that oozes theme and originality. People who've been around for previous IPs know that well, but it might help to have some kind of overview for the new folks to help convey that idea?

Though for what it's worth I think most of the DNFs happen due to life events or poor time management more than seeing an opponent's entry and giving up.

[Hinton]

As Wren pointed out, we're only competing against one person at a time. Now, if it were a case of everyone getting judged and only a certain percentage each round were allowed to advance (like the top 10%), then maybe anonymous entries and hidden galleries would be in order. And DH gave a perfect example of why WIPs, even those of entrants that you aren't paired against, can be a good thing: it might help to push you to do even more.

My thoughts: leave it as it is.

[Morf]

I like it the way it is. Intimidation factor is a part of the game.

[ThunderhawkerMinis]

I am in the school of since its a head to head matchup, what is revealed before the due date is up to the artist. These are tight deadlines with demanding subjects and any feedback you get can be the difference between success and failure. Further it can certainly raise the game of someone like me who works best under some pressure.

[Skya]

I love the way IP is set up and WIP pics are half the fun. Yeah you're showing your hand to your opponent, but to me IP is about one upping myself, so getting feedback and doing a little bit of trying to intimidate my opponent at the same time is part of the game. If you dont want to put your pics up till the last minute you dont have to, even if you're done a week in advance you can choose to wait. I just think that in terms of general attitude you're better off showing off, having fun and tweaking your opponent's nose. :P

[orkydave]

I agree, fine as it is, there are plenty of other competitions out there for folk who like keeping their hand a secret. I always feel like IP has a certain 'David and Goliath' feel about it- the big hitters don't have months or even years to fart and fanny around with every minute detail like with some Golden Demon entries, and the underdog can flaw the favourites with a clever interpretation of the theme and a decent paintjob.

Its the random pairings,tight deadlines, cryptic themes, WIP's and smack that make Iron Painter what it is, and if it aint broke then don't fix it.

[Moavoamoatu]

Yes you should leave it the way it is : anonymity and the possibility to post your work is great. Now it's up to people to post or not before the last minute.

[Grinning Buddha]

Can't see any reason to change what currently happens myself.

[supervike]

I disagree, as a competitor Im not going to show my hand until the last minute. Plus as a photographer I pretty much suck so getting good pictures of my work is an event in itself. Now if my opponents want to show their hand and post their work all be it, its their fault if I beat them by one upping their work.

Nothing says you need to post your entry until the last moment and as you can see by the first round entries most didn't post their work until hours before deadline making it virtually impossible for an opponent to one up anyone.


Yup, I can't argue with that logic either. For instance, if I had an entry that had a 'joke or gag', having it out there before the deadline would lessen the impact.

I can see both sides quite easily. I like the fact that this can cater to either side!!

[demonherald]

Yup, I can't argue with that logic either. For instance, if I had an entry that had a 'joke or gag', having it out there before the deadline would lessen the impact.

I can see both sides quite easily. I like the fact that this can cater to either side!!

In the last IP I had a few Joke gag type things and after taking WIP's I decided against posting them as you say it kind of lessens the impact....I suppose it depends on the theme and how your tackling it....
I know that technique themes such as OSL in the last one lend themselves well to wips but themes that are open guarding is a good thing....as you say leaing it open is great....

would be nice if a few people stored step by steps or wips and posted after the deadline.. Lots of useful things for folks to learn turn up in the pressure cooker that is IP.....

[LavronYor]

Yep, I tried to hold off on my WIP and then only used one. I will try and get some of the other WIPs up soon.

[v22TTC]

Yep, it's IP's unique character that makes it appealing to me, complete with the psychological sub-game. I can understand that it must have been a bit upsetting to get the reaction to the piece of work you got, BenSquig, from your opponent... but that's IP!

Once I get my game up and running and eventually start winning awards, I'd consider an IP win to be worth 50 Slayer Swords, because of the way it's put together exactly as it is. I'm really not a competitive guy but IP, of course, is really about defeating the relevant opponent - yourself. How you react to your opponent's piece (if revealed early, or whatever) is down to you and your will and something to help you learn to grow into the person you want to be: check what I was up against with a few days to go!:eek: I could have given up or gone, `Well, my 11 hour days aren't going to cut it - best go up to 20 [and probably still lose].'

And the art class analogy was a really good one - I knew this all reminded me of something!

EDIT: And there's too much of the `Nanny' thing going on everywhere - you know, reduce everyone's options so that a few won't get a bit upset. IP has the options open; post early or not, and if you're easily disheartened (and don't want to learn to strengthen yourself) then you don't have to check the gallery until the deadline.

More options - always a good thing! :)

[Ben$quig]

It seems some mis-reads and mis-interprets have muddied my point:


To those that mentioned them; I didn't talk about WIP shots at all.
I have no problem with WIP shots whatsoever, they're hot and good to have, but they are not a finished piece at all and so don't carry the same weight with them.

To those that talked about anonymity: I have no comment on anonymity, I like the matchups the way that are for Iron Painter, it's cool to be able to 'research' your opponent and stuff.

To clarify the point I made:
I feel that the FINAL submissions should be held until the deadline, and then revealed.

To the Judges: if this means judging takes longer, then so be it! Take the time you need to judge, many people will probably like the short respite it gives them!

[Ritual]

Actually, people are usually quite anxious to get the judging done as soon as possible. Just saying "take the time you need" will not make people less anxious and, thus, the pressure to get the judging done ASAP will still be there. Believe me!

[Moavoamoatu]

Actually, people are usually quite anxious to get the judging done as soon as possible. Just saying "take the time you need" will not make people less anxious and, thus, the pressure to get the judging done ASAP will still be there. Believe me!

No, no, no...take your time so it let me some time to paint my wargame miniatures if I ever win the first round.

[Ritual]

Seeing how quickly you painted your Ork band I don't think you have a problem, Moavu. ;)

[EricJ]

I have to say I like how the IP works, and don't really see a reason change the way entries are handled. I actually get a bit tired of all the contests which are anonymous, and think that is overdone a bit sometimes. The only reason to do it is really if there is a voting mechanism and you want to avoid favoritism, however, since this is a judged contest, with brilliantly fair and impartial judges, I don't see a reason to need it :)

[Bexley]

You don't have to upload your entry until then end, if you want it to be a secret. But this contest is by nature supposed to be an entirely different animal than traditional ones.

[Darklord]

yeah, knowing who's doing what spices up the smack talk, which is one of the best bits

[Hinton]

@Ben: I think I see the reason for you starting this thread and I understand what you're getting at. While I was going though the IP gallery to comment on the entries, I saw that ringsnake saw your entry and decided to DNF.

I can certainly see where you're coming from by saying that the final entries should wait until right after the deadline to be unveiled. If that was how it was set up, then ringsnake may not have DNF'd since he wouldn't have seen your entry until after his had been submitted.

Speaking strictly for myself, if I had been matched up against you in this first round and I saw your entry, I still would have entered. True, I wouldn't have won, but seeing yours might have been an incentive to push myself even harder to try better.

I guess I would say that it boils down to two choices for a person if they see their opponent's entry early: they can either push themselves to do better or give up. No matter what they may decide, all any of us can do is push ourselves to do our best and not worry about what others may decide to do.

[EricJ]

Remember, while it is a painting contest, it's primarily a contest to determine the most IRON painter, who can face up to all the intimidation, smack talk, tricks, sabotage, etc... and still produce the best results in a very short time frame!

[Darklord]

it is a shame ringsnake did that, i to would still have entered as i dont expect to win the contest but it pushes you and you get some good feedback from some great painters, both laymen and judges, every round i get to participate in i do something new to me and pushing the boundries is a good way to improve your skills

[Moavoamoatu]

Remember, while it is a painting contest, it's primarily a contest to determine the most IRON painter, who can face up to all the intimidation, smack talk, tricks, sabotage, etc... and still produce the best results in a very short time frame!

Just rename the contest : Iron balls.....:vb_devil:

[Duende]

Just rename the contest : Iron balls.....:vb_devil:

Being that all the IP winners so far have been female, I don't think that name would really be fitting.

;)

Iron Jugs maybe? :lol:

[Bexley]

Cans. Iron Cans. Then we can refer to losers as Tin Cans.

[Ben$quig]

Remember, while it is a painting contest, it's primarily a contest to determine the most IRON painter, who can face up to all the intimidation, smack talk, tricks, sabotage, etc... and still produce the best results in a very short time frame!

Thank you!
I understand and appreciate this point of view.

To Hinton: Also thanks to you for a considered response. I did start the thread because of my experience this time, it highlighted to me a "flaw in the plan" so to speak

But I've also realised that although I was fairly bummed out about the outcome, ringsnake probably was too. So I want to extend and apology to ringsnake if this makes things worse or unpleasant as it was never my inention to do so.


I'll reiterate once more; I have no problem with knowing who or what your opponent is doing. I only suggested that the final pics be held until after deadline.



Seems I will have to get a UCT? UTC? Clock set in my house... because it's like 14 hours behind me... or something...
Can anyone tell me which GMT timezone it is?

To be frank, it is likely that I will post early again as I don't like having finished stuff kicking around, not entered, when it could be uploaded and done with. I just hope my round two opponent has a desire to see me crushed before the audience of painting collusseum!

[Hinton]

Seems I will have to get a UCT? UTC? Clock set in my house... because it's like 14 hours behind me... or something...
Can anyone tell me which GMT timezone it is?


Here's a map of the time zones throughout the world:

http://www.worldtimezone.com/

The time zone that supervike goes by is the one that has Chicago in it (it's the green zone in the middle of the US). GMT is right about in the center of the map.

[demonherald]

I have to say I like how the IP works, and don't really see a reason change the way entries are handled. I actually get a bit tired of all the contests which are anonymous, and think that is overdone a bit sometimes. The only reason to do it is really if there is a voting mechanism and you want to avoid favoritism, however, since this is a judged contest, with brilliantly fair and impartial judges, I don't see a reason to need it :)


I ain't fair but i am brilliant......


Ben$quig don't use them big letters I feel like we're all been told off it frightens me :laugh:

It's a shame that people may pull out because they think they have no chance but it is the nature of the iron beast but I guess your sick of hearing that......

I'm firmly in the school of if someone shows their hand early and it is better than mine then up come the sleeves and I try harder... the majority of people in the comp are like that.. If all were like that then there would be fifty entries to judge and 36 was tiring enough..at the end o the day it ain't enforced .. it ain't serious ..( no really it isn't) and it's all good fun but trust me after 10 weeks it is seriously gruelling and the revealing of a theme can become the most important event of the week for ya....this is not an easy contest in fact I would go so far as to say it is probably one of the toughest painting comps of any... time scale the one on one element and the themes causing thinking to be applied all adds up to a real pressue cooker....

still if you havea DNF opponent compare your total final scores to everyone else...at the end of the day if you get the highest score of the round it don't matter what your opponent is up to.....but the upshot of that is whoev er draws you in the following round ups their game to topple that big winner....

[Ben$quig]

don't use them big letters I feel like we're all been told off it frightens me :laugh:


Sorry, I just wanted to be clear; it seemed like many people missed my point. I wasn't telling off or being scaring...

I will await scores!

@Hinton - Thanks for that... I just needed to know that it was GMT -6... that makes it 15.5 hours behind where I am!

[Duende]

@Hinton - Thanks for that... I just needed to know that it was GMT -6... that makes it 15.5 hours behind where I am!

Are we going to play a game of "Where in the World in BenSquig?" just to pass the time until the judges get done scratching their as.... I mean... heads and write down some numbers for vike to miscount. :p:

But I agree that the IP as it is now is probably the best. Entrants can post WIPs or not, and can even put up thier final entry whenever they want (which I don't think effects the judges much because they are all such busy boys that they don't remember to go to the gallery anyway until somebody wakes them up and tell them it's judging time!)

If a painter gets scared off from an opponents entry, then they weren't much Iron anyway. I think it's a lot more "iron"y to post something anyway and proudly say "Here's MINE!!" even if you know you're way outclassed. The comments received and support gotten from the others here always helps. Heck, in the last IP I had to go up against Brushmistress (who I knew was going to beat me soundly) but one of my best paintjobs came out of it (my Glow of Pregnancy).

So no matter who you're paired with, suck it up, break out your brushes and camera, and show your IRON! Even if you only have an ounce and the other guy's got a pound, use it!

:D

(gee i really got going there...)

[Grinning Buddha]

Just rename the contest : Iron balls.....:vb_devil:

But the girls play too! :laugh:

[goblyn13]

Are we going to play a game of "Where in the World in BenSquig?" just to pass the time until the judges get done scratching their as.... I mean... heads and write down some numbers for vike to miscount. :p:

(gee i really got going there...)

Actually 15.5 hours time difference would put him in Central Australia or Guam.

[Paintingploddy]

South Australia is my bet.

[Ben$quig]

perhaps the next theme ingredient can be "Where's BenSquig"...

Just pack a 4" Diametre area with as many minis as you can, then hide a 5mm blue Squig in amongst it somehwhere...

And make sure there's a crook in yellow and black too! Oh, and Gandalf, I mean Wizard Whitebeard.

Hahahahaaaa

[Wren]

But the girls play too! :laugh:

Bah, the girls don't just play, we win!

Uploading as soon as you're done sounds like a good plan to me, beats waiting and having freak internet problems or going out to dinner and forgetting or something. Of course I think for most of the rounds I was in I was scrambling to take, edit and upload pictures within the last two hours of the deadline and was half the time the last person to post a pic, but in theory if I were done early I would happily post early just in case of disaster. :->

[Moavoamoatu]

I totally agree Wren. I posted mine as soon as it was done because I was not sure to be able to do it later.

[Moavoamoatu]

perhaps the next theme ingredient can be "Where's BenSquig"...

Nope the next one is : "paint a DNF" :ahhhhh:

[Darklord]

is that not an oxymoron