Dodge w/Black Joker

[Vmag]

As far as I can tell this is correct but would appreciate some feedback...

Puppet 1 has Combat 0 and attacks Puppet 2. Puppet 2 Dodges with a Black Joker giving it a Df of 0. Puppet 1 now has an Action Value of 0 for the Attack so skips to step 5 of the "Performing an Action" steps and automatically misses.

Very situational of course but I'm not seeing how this wouldn't work. Thanks!

[Hugor]

So with a Combat of 0, Puppet 1 still has the ability to throw a card from their hand. So yes, the black joker would give puppet 2 a 0 with no suite, which is probably a terrible idea, since puppet 1 can then throw anything from their hand and cause damage.

[Vmag]

Puppet 1 still has the ability to throw a card from their hand.

Do they though? "Performing an Action" Step 1 is to declare the Action (Attack in this case), if the Action Value is a 0 and has no suits then you skip over steps 2, 3, and 4 where you are allowed to play out of your hand. Since a Dodge is made right after the Attack action is declared and the Action Value of the Attack is equal to the target's Df, the new Df (and therefore Action Value) is a 0 with no suits.

[Justin]

Do they though? "Performing an Action" Step 1 is to declare the Action (Attack in this case), if the Action Value is a 0 and has no suits then you skip over steps 2, 3, and 4 where you are allowed to play out of your hand. Since a Dodge is made right after the Attack action is declared and the Action Value of the Attack is equal to the target's Df, the new Df (and therefore Action Value) is a 0 with no suits.

This is correct.

If you were to, for some reason, dodge with the black joker, you would skip steps 2, 3, and 4 and the Attacker would hit with a combat of 0 without having played any cards.

Not sure why the defender would do that, but you absolutely can.

[Hugor]

I thought what the rule was saying is if the Action Value (what a puppet needs to get in order to perform the action) is a zero and no suite, you just skip to step 5. So for instance, The guild hounds :fast Bite the Hand (0) does not require steps 2 - 4 to perform the action.

Edit: just reread everything...see how this works...since the Action Value is the defense, it would be 0 in this case, and thus attacker automatically wins...

[Justin]

Ah, now I see why you're asking: no, the attack would not miss. The rules for combat of 0 are simply that you do not flip any cards, not that you have to play a card or the attack misses.

So, you dodge with the black joker, defense becomes 0. Skip to step 5, pay additional costs (probably none), and then apply the effect of being successfully hit by the attack.

[Vmag]

So an Attack automatically hits a Df 0 even though no cards are flipped to beat a 0? Hmmm... I think I see that. So basically the Df is 0 due to Black Joker, the Combat 0 against a Df 0 doesn't allow cards to be cheated in from your hand as usual (due to skipping those steps) so the attacker's value is 0 also and since you need to meet or exceed the Df the attacker actually does hit. Is that about right?
I was obviously coming from the standpoint that if no cards are flipped or played then the Action would auto-fail.

[Hugor]

I was obviously coming from the standpoint that if no cards are flipped or played then the Action would auto-fail.

Nope, your new understanding is correct. If the Action Value is (0) or in the case of an Attack, the DEF is 0 or the dodge card is the black joker (all which would yield an Action Value of 0) then no card is flipped and the Attack is successful.

Sorry for the confusion earlier on, was just looking at the CB 0 side of things.

[Vmag]

Thanks much!


Not sure why the defender would do that, but you absolutely can.

Because the defender thought they could be wily and make the attacker auto-miss :Smug_Puppet2:

This didn't come up in a game at all, just more of a 'what would happen if' type of scenario when trying to figure out the rules.

[LaFemmeGeekita]

To simplify: The black joker makes things auto-fail. If you cheat a black joker in to defend, you auto fail your defense.