View Full Version : While its still fresh ...
11-12-2005, 12:19 AM
While the contest is still fresh in everyones mind, I thought I would go ahead and find out what we did right with this contest, what we spoofed on, and what can be improved upon.
The Wyrd Painting Contest is evolving still at this moment I feel, as the first contest was twenty people painting one single miniature. The second one was themed and and was a LOT of work to run, which in truth caused me to look for a forum and software to help run future contests because I spent FIVE DAYS editing, counting and posting the contest votes and comments in HTML which I swore I would never do again.
So, now we have the still relatively new site and I'm curious what can be done different.
I've had critique, very public ones at that, that the voting system is 'clunky' and doesn't quite inspire anyone to participate. I would like to see about fixing that and I'm going to throw out a couple of options here and see what people think.
Option 1: Confine everything to the galleries. There is an option in which you can rate each photo on its own merrits while leaving your comments at the same time. The rating system is from 1 to 5, with five being the highest and the ratings will will go in .5 increments when calculating 'votes'. The feature was turned off for this contest, but I'm going to turn it on right now in order to give people a look at it (feel free to use it and rate photos in the gallery) and see if this is something that flows a bit better and keeps things together more.
Option 2: Keep it as it is, but allow for multiple votes so that you can choose out your top three favorites. Now the voting polls here give me the option to do either single votes or multiple votes, on the multiple votes though I'm not allowed to 'limit' it so to speak, so it would simply be a matter of me saying THREE votes only and hoping that everyone sticks to that, else I'll end up having to edit the hell out of the poll if some pud decides to play around.
What do you think of the comment system in the gallery which allows for comments to be viewed immediately? I know some people were worried that they would be sniffed out for not leaving comments on their own, but I noticed most people got sneaky and commented rather blandly on their own, or just didn't post too much in the way of comments at all. Does it help, hinder how you view the contest and your voting?
If you've got some comments, suggestions or questions, the floor is open. I would like to find a way to streamline this more and to make it run to its best ability from here on out.
11-12-2005, 03:02 AM
I thought the commenting system was great. Yes it could be noticed that you didnt comment on your own but thats no big deal I think.
I also think it could be better to have the gallery voting. I have reservations about 1-5 though. Could it go to 10. I know it calcs at 0.5 but a 1-10 scale would be better.
Dont change anything else I say as it all seemed pretty much spot on.
11-12-2005, 04:17 AM
I also liked seeing the comments immediately. And that it's non-anonymous makes sure people own up to thier words, so there's no asinine remarks by ones who may make them if they thought they would be "shielded" by private comments.
I like the idea of picking a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places better than a rating system. Sure, it can be screwed around with, but I think the vast majority of people here are honorable and not "puds" ;) who would try something stupid. The idea of the rating system just makes me think of all the rating rants over at CMON in the forums there, even giving it a .5 increment on a 1-5 scale pretty much makes it a 1-10 scale (i.e. 3.5 =7). So I have my reservations over that. I can imagine the forums here afterwards, with disgruntled entrants posting stuff like "Why'd my entry only get 2.5?? It's better than that! Really!! :mad:"
Just my thoughts...
Great contest Nathan, if I didn't procrsatinate so much, I may have done better, but such is life!
11-12-2005, 04:40 AM
"Why'd my entry only get 2.5?? It's better than that! Really!! :mad:"
I honnestly think that the better part of us are above that kind of attitude and grown up enough to read the comments and learn from them. Usually, the first 5 or 10 comments in this contest where both critical and constructive. IMHO rating helps to get a general idea where you stand compared to your paint-friends, and the comments tell you how to impove. I know we could have long discussions on the importance of competition and whether it's worth it or not, but I do think it has a role to play in evaluating one's self and progressing.
*** sorry to repeat in different ways basically the same idea, but I wasn't sure I was clear in my phrasing :P ***
As we are on the question of ratings and voting I think either a 3 vote system (the polls were nice) or a rating system with rates going from one to ten with half points would be interesting. I know I'm being picky with that last proposition, but don't you just hate it when you feel that a mini is on the border line of two rates and you can't give that half point ?
11-12-2005, 04:50 AM
I think the comment options of the pictures of the gallery is great... definatly keep that.
I myself didn't mind the just vote for one system really. It becomes very clear which fig people like the most. There is also a relatively clear 2th and 3th place. (though the relatice differneces between 1st, 2th and 3th will be much bigger than when given an avarage... as people truely have to pick it out as best instead of runner up)
I think either the 1-5 (1-10) vote system or a top 3 will work, but I see no real advantage off it.
Both will be flawed though
I wonder how much work it will be to actually deside winners with the later system... Is it visible how many 1st, 2th and 3th places you get and how does it count up? a 3TH place vote will count equally hard as a 1sth place if you can't see it. (usually they give a 3th place 1 point, a second place 2 points and a 1st place 3 points... and just count up those point gathered at the end to get an honest winner. But this is a TRUCKLOAD of work, and that's exactly the thing you don't want even if this might be a good way to decide a winner, 2th and 3th place. I doubt doing it this way is intergrated in any automatic voting system. I can very well immagine the voting to go in 2 stages instead.... first vote on the 3 best in each category (doesn't matter if it's 1st, 2th or 3th). Then put together another poll with the 3 top scores and just vote for those to get a true winner... which will be unnessecairily most likely if one entry has more votes by a landslide ;) But then again... having just pick the best only is way simpler and probably gives the exact same results. You wanna know who's liked the best, the current system gives that plain and simple. Most people like that one fig the best.... so it get's the most votes... so it wins
The gradesystem 1-5 is flawed as giving grades is very personal. What exactly is supposed to be an 8, what a 7. One person might give a 10 for something he likes equally as someone giving an 8 to the fig... just because one conciders an 8 very high and the other gives 10's easily. This will become a big part in the actual deciding the winner, not just the paintjob as such. Becomes a bit to much of a luck thing ( for instance you are lucky if you happen to have the easy 10 givers on your hand) It's much simpler to deside which 3 you like best regardless of any gradesystem and personal idea's about how gredes work and should be. If everyone would have graded stuff the exact same way this would have worked the best as you get a clear ranking. But it's also not to nice to the lower end of the ranking. It doesn't only give clear winners, but clear loosers as well.
11-12-2005, 04:55 AM
Just thought of something else...
Picking 1st-3rd would be better for those who thought that some entries weren't technically as good as some others, but were very appropriate for the theme. I was thinking of those people who left comments like, "This [entry] isn't as well-painted as this [other entry], but it certainly fits the theme of this contest so I'd pick it over the other one."
A ranking would only be giving it a technical score, but what about those who maybe weren't as good of painters, but really got creative or "themey" with their entries?
OK, I'm done thinking now. ;)
11-12-2005, 05:00 AM
Well we can always add not just a best of show and best base poll... but a best concept/theme fitting idea poll winner as well :)... regardless of painting quality... keep the creative juices flowing. I do recon it will often be the same winner as the best base category though.
11-12-2005, 05:05 AM
Or do like in ice-skating : a technical note and an artistic ... but then the voting system would take forever.
11-12-2005, 09:42 AM
I agree that a 2nd or 3rd or maybe just a 1st and a runner up would help.
Assume 10 entrants. I think most here would understand references to CMON so assume entry #1 would easily get a 9.2 on CMON. Entry #2 would get an 8.7 on CMON and the others would all get 4.5.
With only 1 choice, everyone will clearly vote for entry #1.
Entrant #2 will not know that it was actually a close race.
11-12-2005, 12:55 PM
Thats pretty much my thinking behind 3 votes.
I would like a 1-10 score just becuase its what Im used to at cmon.
I liked being able to see the comments throughout the voting period. It helped me try to focus my comments on things which few or no people had already mentioned, or held me back from hammering someone with an umpteenth thin your paint or so on when they had enough feedback to get that point already.
If it's possible to do, I'd like to see a three vote system. I like the system over at Master Class painters quite a bit. (I think it does what a previous poster mentioned about more points for a first place vote than a third, and I believe it's automated.) The entry which is the most technically accomplished isn't always the one that's the most creative or most in the spirit of the contest, and it'd be really nice to be able to recognize both achievements with my vote(s). Even two votes weighted equally would work for me.
A rating system doesn't seem as much in the spirit of a contest to me - I could merrily go along and give every entry I really liked a top score, but nothing would be forcing me to pick the one (two or three) that I liked the absolute most.
11-12-2005, 08:08 PM
There needs to be a technical vs "picking-the-right-sculpt" aspect to it, dont know how though. As for the voting system, i think its fine, people will be people, no modification in the voting system will change the outcome.
11-14-2005, 12:21 AM
I liked the commenting. I personally had a hard time picking just one and giving 3 votes would be an improvement, for sure. :)
11-14-2005, 03:07 AM
the comment system is great, so please don't change it !
As for the voting system, i'll favour the 3 votes (3 points+ 2 points+ 1 point) system since it gives some points to the runner ups : certain entries deserved points but didn't get them because you had to chose the very best only.
I'm also for a best "theme compliance" category for people who spent a lot of time on accessories like terrain etc...
The voting scale is not important to me 1-10 or 1-5 are both fine.
Cheers and thanks again for organizing this great contest !
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