Flying and Charging

[Jubilee]

Hello!

I am learning to play a nephilim crew and in the game I played last Tuesday, my opponent contended that the benefits of flight (ignoring terrain & being able to move over intervening models) did not benefit a charge because of the Mature Nephilim's "Diving Attack" which states: This model Charges an enemy model ignoring LoS, terrain and intervening models. If the Charge fails end this model's activation.

The rules for charge on page 36 of the rules manual says "The model must obey the normal rules for movement including movement penalties and disengaging Strikes." My opponent took "normal rules for movement" to mean "you can't move through other models and take movement penalties for terrain." But I would think "normal rules for movement" would include that model's type of movement - in this case, flight.

I couldn't find anything with a search, and the FAQ seems to be missing in the Games section, so I apologize in advance if this has already been resolved on the forums.

Thanks!

Ali

[poulpox]

Hi!
The general rule is that the RM provides basic game rules, and model cards provide extra rules and/or modifications which overrule the RM. So in the instance of the nephilim his diving attack overrule the regular RM charge rule; he is therefore allowed to charge through other models and terrain, so pretty good!
I'm not sure whether there is a place in the RM where it states that model cards overrule the RM rules though, but this is how it's played :)

T.

[poulpox]

I found it, it's on page 7 of the RM
;)

[Cadilon]

Hi!
The general rule is that the RM provides basic game rules, and model cards provide extra rules and/or modifications which overrule the RM. So in the instance of the nephilim his diving attack overrule the regular RM charge rule; he is therefore allowed to charge through other models and terrain, so pretty good!
I'm not sure whether there is a place in the RM where it states that model cards overrule the RM rules though, but this is how it's played :)

T.

I think the point of the question was, if a model can charge from flight (which it looks to me from the RM that it can), and the Mature Nephilim has flight, why does the Mature Nephilim also have a specific action (Diving Attack) that allows it to charge from flight? That action would seem to be superfluous, unless one couldn't actually charge from flight.

[Iamwyrd]

I think diving attack also says no Los is required. Whereas a normal charge you do need line of sight.

[Cadilon]

I think diving attack also says no Los is required. Whereas a normal charge you do need line of sight.

That would explain it. Thanks.

[Jubilee]

I agree, the diving charge adds LoS to the other benefits of flying & charging. My opponent was of the opinion that the Diving Charge wouldn't have included the notes about models & terrain unless the Nephilim wouldn't normally get it. I think the description is just being thorough, in case a non-flying model might be given the same ability at some point.

My question is: Does fly apply to a charge (my reading), or does the game assume everyone is walking for a charge (my opponent's reading).

Sorry to confuse my question with so much background babble.

[goblyn13]

A charge requires Line of Sight and on the same level (can't climb or anything in between)

pg 36 (Rules Manual):



(2) Charge: This model may take the Charge Action if it has a target model within its LoS, which is not already in its melee range. The charging model must move up to its Cg in a straight line toward the target, making every effort to end the move with the target in melee range. The model must obey the normal rules for movement including movement penalties and disengaging Strikes. At the end of the Charge move, if the target is in melee range, the model immediately makes a melee Strike with one of its melee Weapons and receives :+fate on its Damage Flip for that attack. If the target of the Charge is out of melee range at the end of the model’s move, the Charge Action ends immediately.


That's the general Rule

However on Pg 37 (Rules Manual)


Models with the Flight Ability move over terrain without penalty and over other models but cannot end their movement in or on impassable terrain or another model’s base.
---<snip>---
Models with the Flight or Float Ability ignore enemy models’ disengaging Strikes when moving except for disengaging Strikes from models whose melee ranges they began the movement within. These models also ignore vertical distances when moving and can be placed atop climbable terrain without moving a vertical distance.

Meaning they can move over intervening models without suffering disengaging strikes and they can move up veritical surfaces without climbing. as well as over terrain and still keep in the straight line, but they still need Line of Sight (remember rules follow these steps: General -> Specific -> Most Specific: So a model with Flight would get the benefits from flight when charging however flight does not all the model to ignore line of sight)





(2) Diving Attack: This model Charges an enemy model ignoring LoS, terrain and intervening models. If the Charge fails end this model’s activation.


The reason for Diving Attack is that it ignores Line of Sight, and allows for the Nephilim to move over a cluster of models to position himself wherever that gets him into melee while keeping him out of melee of others.

[Jubilee]

Thanks for confirming my interpretation, goblyn!

[Hookers]

A charge requires Line of Sight and on the same level (can't climb or anything in between)




Why do you have to be on the same level? Climb isn't an action it's a movement penalty. The rule you cited says you just have to pay the cost of the movement penalty in inches and still be able to make the charge, not that you can't climb at all.

[brdparker]

Nice, a sheer google search brought me back to the forums. Fun stuff...

Anyway, to open up an older post (may it please the court, as it's rather still on topic) when (2) Diving Attack-ing, it says to ignore intervening models and terrain. Does that count for disengage strike as well? Of course it would if the model didn't start in melee range, but what if it did?

The way I've been playing it depended on if the disengaging model was physically between the charger and the chargee or not (honing in on the word "intervening" of the clause).

In other words:
MNephilim is (2) Diving Attack-ing a rotten belle while engaged with a Crooked Man and a Punk Zombie. Punk Zombie is physically between MNephilim and the target of the charge (Rotten Belle), but the Crooked Man is not. Therefore, the PZ is an "intervening" model, and is ignored (including the disengage strike), but the CM is not, and gets a disengage strike.

Is this correct? By the same token, Marcus's (0) Wild Heart: Hare sub-spell should work the same way. No?

[Ausplosions]

You ignore the model. (as in you can move through it). Not its melee range.

You would still suffer from disengaging strikes.

[brdparker]

Oh, wyrd and your terminology. I always interpreted ignoring a model as ignoring all effects of a model as well. Well, never mind then.

Thanks for the ruling, autoplosions.

[Adran]

Have to check the rules but I though that flight doesn't let you ignore the models you start off engaged with, but does allow you to ignore the zones of models you move into during that move.

[Ausplosions]

Have to check the rules but I though that flight doesn't let you ignore the models you start off engaged with, but does allow you to ignore the zones of models you move into during that move.


Yes.

Exactly. No one said any different.

[BurkerKiing]

A charge requires Line of Sight and on the same level (can't climb or anything in between)

pg 36 (Rules Manual):



Wyrd must really hate diagonal lines. A while ago I tried to argue that diagonal distance should be taken in to account when measuring distance. I think it was fair to say that I was shot down in flames with not one person agreeing with me and all saying measuring horizontal distance was easy and straight forward. Even though I highlighted a possible scenario where the game distance between two protagonists dependended on what they were doing (melee attack or spell attack). Anyway like I said 'shot down in flames'.

I have an idea for a new character. Don't know about his other abilities but he is instinctual with the following two powers:
(0) Lower a 30mm piece of scenery by Ht1. If you are at Ht 0 this has no effect.
(0) Create a 30mm piece of scenery directly where you are standing. You are now at a different level to the immediate terrain.

I know the above is flippant - and let me say I love the game but at times...

Surely a HT3 creature (LCB?) should be able to charge someone on a HT1 piece of terrain, for example? Want a simple, easy to administer rule?

Any creature may ignore a HT of their HT-2. IE To a HT 3 creature a HT 1 piece of terrain is trivial and therefore does not need to 'climb' it, they just step on to it.

[Ausplosions]

This is an old thread that has been restarted.

Do yourself a favour and read the FAQ before making claims about game quality.

You can charge up or down levels.

[Ratty]

I'm going to lock this thread- it's a necrod thread from ages back, before the FAQ- and its just going to be confusing. If you have any questions on this topic start a new thread.