Mindless Zombie vs Malifaux Rats

[rgtriplec]

So, if a zombie kills a rat with a teeth strike what happens:

1. Empty vessel makes a Zombie

2. Voracious Rats makes a rat

3. Both 1 & 2

4. You get a Malifaux Mindless Zombie Rat in a future release:)

[magicpockets]

2 if Empty Vessel says "summon" and its within 6" of Hsmelin or a Rat Catcher

[Wodschow]

Similar question was asked here:
http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20890

Ruling in that thread means however that you will never be able to use Empty Vessel at all..


Disregarding that (even if it's a Rules Marshal ruling..).. It should work as Mindless Zombies are placed, not summoned, which is what Voracious Rats prevents.

Edit: Realized I didn't answer the question: You'd get both..

[DonB]

I was sure the rat would be, first. But then I refreshed my memory of the rules, and now I'm confused. You summon a rat, and you place a zombie. Both seem to occur at the same time.

So my conclusion is, That's a bloody good question!

[sephiroa]

nope, if both things occur when someone dies, the one who is activited occurs first

same when an executioner kills a gamin. FIRTS he heals all his wounds an then he gets the 2 damage, not the other way arround.

following the previous example. first the mindless zombie is placed an then a rat. and the Varocious rats prevent other monsters being summoned, but they are being placed, and since the empty vessel goes first, he wins,

its the same os the other rule in the manual i think, when there are creatures summoned or placed or you have an ability wich allows you to draw cards or stuff, only the one closest to the model that dies gets to activate his ability, so in both ways the mindless zombies empty vessel wins, (unless the rat cather is standing on the rat but i doubt that)

that would be my thought about it :) since they are replaced from the model, even if they don't generate counters, its the same as the mannequin replacement, they just get replaced not summoned trough a counter.

[rgtriplec]

Similar question was asked here:
http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20890

Ruling in that thread means however that you will never be able to use Empty Vessel at all..


Disregarding that (even if it's a Rules Marshal ruling..).. It should work as Mindless Zombies are placed, not summoned, which is what Voracious Rats prevents.

Edit: Realized I didn't answer the question: You'd get both..

I read that thread and two others on similar subjects. One reason I still asked is because although we are dealing with a fantasy game where nothing that happens is remotely possible. It goes against the fluff or game logic that one body would generate two things. Its not a magical occurrence per se like a magician summoning a spirit or demon or something, its rats multiplying because there are bodies feed off of and bodies turning into zombies. You can't be consumed by rats and turned into zombie.


One bad thing about this section of the forum is you don't really know who's answer is correct a lot of the time. Other forums you know who is an official voice because it'll say something like "Add game's name Team Member" or "Add game's name mod" below the posters name. Granted, Henchman often give answers but that doesn't make it an official ruling in my mind.

Maybe a sticky that lists whose answers are official could keep multiple threads on similar subjects down.

Thanks for the answer.

edit:

Actually, I see the little Marshal Stars now:)

[DonB]

yep, I'd love a rules marshall to rule on this one. I play both Nico and Hamelin, this situation could happen and I intend to start playing a LOT more now that I'm heading back to Australia, so would be great to know.

[sephiroa]

It goes against the fluff or game logic that one body would generate two things. Its not a magical occurrence per se like a magician summoning a spirit or demon or something, its rats multiplying because there are bodies feed off of and bodies turning into zombies. You can't be consumed by rats and turned into zombie.

well, this is very easy to answer, if you are bitten and killed by the zombie that would be the first to activate because the rats come from a further distance and are to late to eat the body because its already a zombie. get it? :p

this would be mine answer :)

[Ratty]

The original ruling was correct. As they are counters they can't be generated as a result of the model dying.

[DonB]

but the zombie is first...

[magicpockets]

but the zombie is first...

The Rat has spoken and he has a badge ;)

[Mike3838]

I still think this bears further clarification though Ratty.

Empty vessel says:

"Place a number of MZs equal to the defenders base size... Defender does not generate Corpse Counters"

The very wording of the trigger states that Corpse counters can't be generated.

So... unless you take the stance that the MZs are placed from the trigger (and not from the death of the model, corpse counters or no), then Empty Vessel will never ever work since the wording of the trigger contradicts itself.

Mike

[sephiroa]

The original ruling was correct. As they are counters they can't be generated as a result of the model dying.

stil i think it would be weird, because the zombie is placed because of a model dying same as the rats with varocious rats they are summoned because of the rat bying killed.

but only because the zombie has this ability that he is a walking corpse counter it does not count?

so if i would follow this, that means that a constructs, nigtmares soulles and spirits cannot turn into mindless zombies?
spirits i understand, and constructs as well. but then you still have special constructs that drop a corpse counter as well. would they turn into a mindless zombie as well?

than the empty vessel trigger should have been different:
now it says: After killing a living or Undead
defender with a Teeth Strike, place a number of Mindless
Zombies equal to the defender’s base size in base contact
with the defender before it is removed from play. Defender
does not generate Corpse Counters. (its in white, it could be possible that they won't like it me posting this, if they don't like it, i wil delete it immediatly)
even here it says that the killed model won't generate corpse counters.
it just saying something about the model being killed. not that they are being generated from a corpse counter.

sorry if i'm being annoying right now, but the ruling isn't making any sense to me

[sephiroa]

I still think this bears further clarification though Ratty.

Empty vessel says:

"Place a number of MZs equal to the defenders base size... Defender does not generate Corpse Counters"

The very wording of the trigger states that Corpse counters can't be generated.

So... unless you take the stance that the MZs are placed from the trigger (and not from the death of the model, corpse counters or no), then Empty Vessel will never ever work since the wording of the trigger contradicts itself.

Mike

exactly what i was saying,,

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

If a model cannot generate counters normally, then a Mindless Zombie cannot be placed.

[sephiroa]

and it says that a MZ counts as. but he isn't one,

to make a 40k example: some infantry can count as a jetbike for moving purposes, but it still is infantry

exactly the same as here, MZ is a minion, but counts as a walking corpse counter.

i can understand it with the Desolation engine, that you won't get 3 zombies because of the 2 steampunk abominations, so that only one can be placed because of its 50mm base and the rule that you can't place or summon more minions than the base allows.

[sephiroa]

oooh well,,
still doesn't make sense to me, but okay :)

soo, what about the voracious rats? isn't this the same principle?
they say the exact same thing, the difference is that with the rats, it would be any model, even spirits and constructs

[Mike3838]

Thanks Sketch :)

So, in summary Empty Vessel should in fact say:
"If a model is killed, instead of placing corpse counters, place a number of Mindless Zombies equal to the number of corpse counters that would have been generated"

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Thanks Sketch :)

So, in summary Empty Vessel should in fact say:
"If a model is killed, instead of placing corpse counters, place a number of Mindless Zombies equal to the number of corpse counters that would have been generated"
Exactly. And remember that Place is different than Summon. ;)

[sephiroa]

Thanks Sketch :)

So, in summary Empty Vessel should in fact say:
"If a model is killed, instead of placing corpse counters, place a number of Mindless Zombies equal to the number of corpse counters that would have been generated"

well if said like this, there wouldn't be this discussion ;)
but now that sketch said it would be like this. i believe this discussion is finished :)

@ ratty and sketch: sorry i was such a pain in the ass :D

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

@ ratty and sketch: sorry i was such a pain in the ass :D
No worries. :) It keeps us on our toes.

[Zee]

nope, if both things occur when someone dies, the one who is activited occurs first

same when an executioner kills a gamin. FIRTS he heals all his wounds an then he gets the 2 damage, not the other way arround.



While the current issue is resolved, just wanted to point out that this is incorrect. The executioner doesn't trigger on death, it triggers on remove from play after killed.

So the Shatter would happen first.

Zee

[sephiroa]

No worries. :) It keeps us on our toes.

allright :) no harm done i suppose :D
keep up the good work :) it's because discussions like this that i like this forum :) you clarify everything personally.

and after that, you create a rules manual with al these discussions clarified :D

[sephiroa]

While the current issue is resolved, just wanted to point out that this is incorrect. The executioner doesn't trigger on death, it triggers on remove from play after killed.

So the Shatter would happen first.

Zee

ooh, well this was a discussion i had with somebody else, and this was also clarified like this :)

soo, this means that if the shatter kills the executioner, they both die?

[sephiroa]

I'm going off topic now,,

[Zee]

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=258574#post258574

[DonB]

Well there you go. Interesting conclusion indeed.

[magicpockets]

So, in summary Empty Vessel should in fact say:
"If a model is killed, instead of placing corpse counters, place a number of Mindless Zombies equal to the number of corpse counters that would have been generated"

So in context of the OP's questions, no Mindless Zombies would be placed when a Rat dies as Voracious Rats (which the question is presumably about) says no counters can be generated as a result of the model dying.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

So in context of the OP's questions, no Mindless Zombies would be placed when a Rat dies as Voracious Rats (which the question is presumably about) says no counters can be generated as a result of the model dying.
Correct.