Seichin vs other start of activation effect

[CannonFodder]

If i'm activating a model that has a cost at the start of activation, and my opponent has setchin. Who has to declare the effect first.

ex: Setchin vs Pigapault - does the setchin player need to sacrifice it before the pigapult chooses to sacrifice the pig. Or can the setchin player get to see if the pig gets sacrificed before they sacrifice the setchin.

[marshimartian]

If i'm activating a model that has a cost at the start of activation, and my opponent has setchin. Who has to declare the effect first.

ex: Setchin vs Pigapault - does the setchin player need to sacrifice it before the pigapult chooses to sacrifice the pig. Or can the setchin player get to see if the pig gets sacrificed before they sacrifice the setchin.

In general when things happen simultaneously, they follow activation order, so it depends on who had initiative.

[Pink Horror]

If i'm activating a model that has a cost at the start of activation, and my opponent has setchin. Who has to declare the effect first.

What's a setchin?

[Ratty]

What's a setchin?

I think it some kind of spicy chicken dish.

[CannonFodder]

I really gotta keep a book infront of me when I post.

Seishin

[Hookers]

as a practical matter this is how i would play it:

when you declare that you are activating the pigapult is when the kirai player needs to sac the seishin. however the game will likely move faster than that so they might be like "wait a minute, i need to sac a seishin" after you have sac'd a pig. in this case i would like the kirai player do that, but also let you unsac your pig, if that makes sense.

however that ability really covers up one of her only weaknesses, so i would also understand making the kirai player have to be more vigilant with declaring that, and if they missed their chance too bad.

i would just still sac the pig and blast away at the stupid lost love hiding in the corner :thcow2:

[CannonFodder]

when I play against an experienced kirai player and I want to do a :blast or :pulse effect I say I'm activating it, and pretend to read the card to give them a chance react. If after 2 seconds they don't say anything I go ahead and say its too late. Also usually list the models that can :pulse & :blast at the start of game so they can't say they didn't know. By doing that it eliminate in game arguments, and still do sneaking things. But with the pigapault its valid timing issue which both are supposed to sacrifice models at the start of activation. Which my way of playing does not eliminate the issue. In most games its the activating player who chooses the order of simultaneous trigger, but I don't see any precedence in Malifaux which is why I'm asking here. In this case would be in the same spirit of the game and models because the seishin is supposed to be sacrificed before the opposing does anything which does :blast . and the way I read pigapault its a cost to have the ability for the turn. I don't know how many other model combinations have start of activation abilities, but a general FAQ statement would help.

I tried to post here cleanly without my opinion on the need for a FAQ, but so far all I've seen is the response from marshimartian, but this means that one turn A its one way on turn 2 its the other. that seams a little odd to me. As with Hookers we can just do a practical way of resolving the issue for that game, but I usually like to figure it out after the game to make sure we are playing correctly which is what these forums are for. Is there any chance of an official ruling in general for 2 abilities that have the same timing trigger.

1) Start of activation
2) start of closing
3) during closing

excuse my persistent misspelling of Seishin... My usual opponent who plays them is from Brazil and always pronounced them Setchin. and thanks to whoever fixed my original typos.

[Hookers]

well it doesn't really pose that much of a problem because you have to sac the pig to fire the weapon. unless you have no targets at all (ignoring los it shouldn't be an issue) you are going to sac the pig regardless

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

If you have to sac a pig before declaring a target you sac the pig period. Does Seishen have to do there sac at the activation of model? If so seishin sac would happen before you you do anything with activated model. Sounds like after an action they can sac if that is the case pig is lost first. Don't have book with me so post wording you are confused about.

Edit:
Seishen says at beginning of models activation. So does Pork Barrage if you have any intention of using the gun. When it comes down to you would have to complete the declaration of your model's activation first to say it is activated, this includes sac a pig. The language says it needs to be down during the whole phase. You don't have to declare a target until later so you can still hit her other stuff.

This seems pretty easy and straight forward, reason being you can't have a start of model activation until model owner activates a model. Seishen does say at start not before start so this means after you have declared a model.

"This model's Controller may sacrifice this model at the start of any model's activation to make all friendly Seishin and Kirai ...."

Bold is the key word, not opponent's turn but model's activation so a model has to be declared as activated before Seishin sacs itself. So the Seishin player will know which models is being activated.

"This weapon ignores LoS when declaring a target. At the start of the each of this model's activations, this model must sacrifice a friendly Piglet or friendly Stuffed Piglet within 2" in order to use this Weapon during it's activation..."

Bold is the key word at the start, so this is upon the moment you declare the model as activating it is activating.

[CannonFodder]

If I'm playing a pigapault I'm not going to shoot every turn, the ammo is expensive, and its not per shot its per activation which must be announced at the start of activation. I may just move it so I can launch a gremelin next. but if I have the opportunity to shoot at a prime target such as a pile of kirai seichin before she can beacon I'll take it. also it becomes a bit of a poker thing to see if my opponent flinches and sacs a sechin. Once she runs out she is like collette without soulstones , she has to play a lot more carefully before she is back into a safe zone.

Stepping out of this specific situation shouldn't the rules mechanic for simultaneous effect be figured out, how do we figure out proper order. is it initiative order, If so where can we find that info.

[Ratty]

If two effects happen at the same phase, you follow the following timing, in the RM p6. As neither ability is must you move onto the second bullet. the acting model goes first, which in this case it the Pigapult.



• Players should resolve effects occurring simultaneously in the following order:
o Effects that must occur will occur before effects that may occur.
o Resolve immediate effects first, then effects of the acting player, then by activation order of that player's models (p.31).
o Any effects that are not controlled by either player, such as any terrain or environmental or Encounter effects, are resolved last and affect models simultaneously. Players with multiple models affected always resolve the effects in an order of their choosing.

[CannonFodder]

Thank for the clarity. Looks like everyone had the wrong assumption.