Whirlwind on Collodi

[Serigala]

This came up at a tournament at the weekend.
Viktoria attempted Whirlwind in a group of models containing Collodi and a handful of Marionettes.

Whirlwind: after damaging defender...immediately make a strike against another target.

Collodi Talent: Marionettes After another model hits this model with a strike or spell targetting this model, this model's controller may nominate a friendly Marionette within 6" to become the target before resolving the effects of the strike or spell.

The refs rulled that as the model damaged by the initial strike was a Marionette, not the defender (Collodi) Whirlwind wasn't triggered.
RAW I think this is correct, but I put this up here for confirmation or discussion.

For future reference, are there any other models with similar abilities which can nerf Whirlwind?

[Sliver Chocobo]

I belive you attack the Marionette first then, then whirlwind triggers you target Collodi, Collodi's ability triggers and pushes the attack onto Marionette then you attack the marionette. You might end attacking the same model twice, normally you can't do this but the first target is Collodi and his abitly says you must attack this model instead

[ukrocky]

Dirty, dirty Collodi...(Sorry Ian...) *Hugs*

[karn987]

Yeah I read it the way Chocobo reads it, because Collidi's ability shifts the target to a Marionette so because it is the target it is like Viktoria was always targeting that model. So Whirlwind would be triggered off the Marionette and could make the additional strike on Collidi, who could do it again if needed.

I think another question to add to this is what would happen if Collidi bounced the attack back to that same Marionette (saying it some how survived)? That Marionette is no longer a legal target of the attack. I suspect this will get a wording update when the card comes out, but for right now it looks it would bypass the targeting restriction.

[Serigala]

That Marionette is no longer a legal target of the attack. I suspect this will get a wording update when the card comes out, but for right now it looks it would bypass the targeting restriction.

With a range of 6" (out of melee range of most models) there cannot be a requirement that the Marionette taking the damage would be a legal target of any attacks, so I don't think this would be an issue.


With a single Marionette I think it would work like this;

Vik strikes Marionette. Damage dealt to Marionette. Triggers whirlwind.
Vik strikes Collodi. Damage pushed off to Marionette. Whirlwind fails to go off, as defender (Collodi) not damaged.

With multiple Marionettes then the Viks should just ignore Collodi and bounce the attacks between the puppets, until there is only one left, but as the range of the ability is 6" and the range of Viks melee is 2" this would depend on poor model placement on the part of the Collodi player.

[karn987]

With a range of 6" (out of melee range of most models) there cannot be a requirement that the Marionette taking the damage would be a legal target of any attacks, so I don't think this would be an issue.


With a single Marionette I think it would work like this;

Vik strikes Marionette. Damage dealt to Marionette. Triggers whirlwind.
Vik strikes Collodi. Damage pushed off to Marionette. Whirlwind fails to go off, as defender (Collodi) not damaged.


Well you see thats the thing... with something that shifts the target to another model, that model becomes the Defender. So in this case, the new Defender is the Marionette and since Whirlwind happens on Damage and Marionettes happens on hit... the target is shifted and the new defender is set before the damage is flipped for. So it seems perfectly legal that Vik can Whirlwind off the Marionette when the hit is transferred to them.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I totally agree with Karn and chocobo the language is clear on when the trigger goes off. When defender is damaged, new target is the defender.

[LoboStele]

Yeah, it's a difference between whether the Dg is shifted to the Marionette, or the target is shifted. Will have to see how the card is worded.

[Mike3838]

I think it comes down to whether there is a difference between "defender" and "target".

Collodi's ability makes the Marionette into the new "target", but I don't believe that the doll becomes the "defender", since it was Collodi that made the "defense" flip.

I think it will come down to whether "defender" is explicitly defined somewhere in the Rules Manual. I don't have mine handy at the moment.

Mike

[aka_hazard]

The defender is defined (page 18) as '..either the direct target when a target is required, or any models potentially affected by the attack.'

My reading of it goes...
Declare target (Collodi) then Check Range
Resolve the Strike Duel
If the Strike hits then Collodi may nominate a friendly Marionette within 6" to become the target before resolving the effects of the Strike.
Apply Damage - Damage is applied to the Marionette and Whirlwind can be triggered because the 'defender' is the target and the Marionette has become the target and ergo the defender.

[magicpockets]

or any models potentially affected by the attack.'

This is the key bit - any model within 6" of Collodi would be the defender as it could be "potentially affected by the attack". So personally I think the wrong decision was made and you should have been able to use Whirlwind.

Also, you could still stack whirlwind even if it's constantly pushed to the same marionette as each time you start the trigger you declare a "new target" (Collodi) and it then gets shifted by Collodi's ability back to the same "new" target.

(Craig, you naughty, naughty boy ;))

[Hookers]

Yeah Whirlwind should work in this scenario imo

[Ratty]

http://malifaux.nezumi.me.uk/M_Clarification.jpg
When the Trigger is declared Collodi is the Defender. Between this happening and the Damage being dealt the Defender changes to the Marionette. So when the Trigger resolves the Marionette is now the Defender. Therefore the Whirlwind strike can hit any model but the Marionette.

[BigTed]

So you could target collodi, and kill a mari, trigger
ww and so on. This would let you kill all maris within 6" of collodi(and outside of your melee range) and then eventually target and damage collodi
sweet

[Ratty]

If you keep getting Masks and the Collodi player chooses to pass on the Effects and not prevent them with SSs.

[magicpockets]

Oh Craig, Craig, Craig.... :disappoin

:D

[mythicFOX]

In fairness to Craig this was me ruling it wrong at the event. :doh:

I thought it moved the effect and damage, not changed the defender. I stand corrected.

:imsorry:

[magicpockets]

In fairness to Craig this was me ruling it wrong at the event. :doh:

But its much more fun to mock Craig as he keeps beating us :)

[ukrocky]

:flute: