Assassinate the Dreamer

[poulpox]

Hello!
I was just looking for confirmation: if a player announces Assassinate against the Dreamer, does s/he have to declare it on either Dreamer or LCB or does s/he have to kill both models? (And would it be the same answer for Viktoria, although they have the same name so it might be a different situation)

Thanks!
T.

[Dark Alleycat]

just like the song says,gotta kill em all.

[poulpox]

But isn't the fact that in Bodyguard it does precise it applies to both Masters in the case of multi-model masters means that if it isn't precised in Assassinate means that only one model needs to be killed?
I play Dreamer, so I'm happy if it needs to be both masters killed, however after re-reading the scheme I can't find a reason why it should be both models :$

Would it be the same for Hoffman special scheme? Would he have to kill both Dreamer AND LCB in order to succeed?

[Sliver Chocobo]

I belive you choose one or the other

[poulpox]

That's 2 opposite opinion between Alleycat and Chocobo (I am pro Chocobo atm), anyone else?

[mythicFOX]

It's on page 100 of the rules manual. Don't have it with me but gawping at the redacted version on the PDF if think it says something like;

"secretly make a note of one of your opponents masters or henchmen" ... "if the model is not in play at the end of the encounter..."

So I'd say pick one, and kill him/it.

[FearLord]

Dreamer and Lord Chompy Bits are listed as different Master models - Assassinate tells you to choose one of your opponents Masters or Henchmen - therefore, you specify one or the other (or choose it twice, once on each of them).

[Slade]

Well, lets use some evidence to back this up:

Assassinate says

Secretly make note of one of your opponent's Masters or Henchmen. This scheme may be taken more than once, but you must choose a different model each time.

So, since they are both Master models, you should choose one of them for the Assasinte.

"HARK!" Says some of you "but the Lord Chompy Bits has an ability entitled 'One Master'!"
To which I will reply
Yes, this is a valid point, however this is just the abilities name and it is not clear whether or not these models are connected for victory point purposes (including Slaughter and Assassinate), and since each of these models can survive while the other is dead (due to Dreamer's Revenge and Release Nightmare), they must not be the same model. Furthermore, they both exist "In game" (since a buried model is still considered in game) unlike the Coryphee which transfer over wounds and effects then sacrifice themselves to become the Duet (and thus become the same model). With all this I am left to conclude, unless enlightened otherwise, that crews led by The Dreamer have two masters (despite not being a brawl) and you would choose one to be targeted by Bodyguard and Assassinate et al.

[Slade]

Damn me and my grammar. Proofread my posts and I become three replies late.

[poulpox]

What about Viktorias? Does the fact that they have the same name mean the models count as one model or would you still have to pick between gun-Vik and sword-Vik for the scheme purpose?

[Slade]

Yes, for the same reasoning.

[poulpox]

This is a good scheme against multi-model masters as they are usually a little more frail than other masters; I guess the Viks have however the option to summon another model of the one which has been killed, hence giving more chance to survive Assassinate; as for Dreamer you can play cautiously and never over-expose the targeted master, so all in all it kinda balances out the weakness of the masters.

[Sliver Chocobo]

What about Viktorias? Does the fact that they have the same name mean the models count as one model or would you still have to pick between gun-Vik and sword-Vik for the scheme purpose?

You choose one of them eather the bounty hunter or the sword mistress

[Slade]

Summoning is where another question comes into play;
Since the summoned model isn't the same as the nominated model (it's just a new copy of it) is it still assassinated? Or since Assassinate just says if the noted model is not in the game at the end of the encounter you get points, does it become Un-sassinated? That one I'm not sure of, but I'd lean towards it's still assassinated.

Just remember, you don't have to announce Assassinate ;)

[Sliver Chocobo]

This is a good scheme against multi-model masters as they are usually a little more frail than other masters; I guess the Viks have however the option to summon another model of the one which has been killed, hence giving more chance to survive Assassinate; as for Dreamer you can play cautiously and never over-expose the targeted master, so all in all it kinda balances out the weakness of the masters.

For the teams for assassinate, I would say that once you've killed the model you goten the points and it's dead for all conditions for that scheme, even if that model is brought back

[sephiroa]

Summoning is where another question comes into play;
Since the summoned model isn't the same as the nominated model (it's just a new copy of it) is it still assassinated? Or since Assassinate just says if the noted model is not in the game at the end of the encounter you get points, does it become Un-sassinated? That one I'm not sure of, but I'd lean towards it's still assassinated.

Just remember, you don't have to announce Assassinate ;)

it is assasinated, viks can create a new one, but since that happened because they died, she's dead, and summoned models aren't in the list, so you can't nominate them ;)

[magicpockets]

Wow, we've always played you have to ice both models - interesting...

[poulpox]

so you can't nominate them ;)

That can't be right, I think this is going the wrong way of the rule :/
For Assassinate it is not about killing a model but about the nominated model 'not being in the game' at the end of the game. So if a model is killed and then the same name model is summoned (and in the case of a Master since it's a unique model technically the new model is the same as the one originally selected, it can't be different, there's only one version of that model; you could think of that summoned model as a resurected/revived version of the previously killed one) I think that Master still counts as being in the game at the end of the game and Assassinate would then fail.
For Hoffman's scheme it's different though as it involves killing a master. In this instance when a Vik is killed although she might be summoned again, she still counts as having been killed I would think.
:)

[magicpockets]

That can't be right, I think this is going the wrong way of the rule :/
For Assassinate it is not about killing a model but about the nominated model 'not being in the game' at the end of the game. So if a model is killed and then the same name model is summoned (and in the case of a Master since it's a unique model technically the new model is the same as the one originally selected, it can't be different, there's only one version of that model; you could think of that summoned model as a resurected/revived version of the previously killed one) I think that Master still counts as being in the game at the end of the game and Assassinate would then fail.
:)

Agreed, you don't get assassinate for killing Hamelin or Levi the first time - you get it for killing them for good ;)

[Sliver Chocobo]

That can't be right, I think this is going the wrong way of the rule :/
For Assassinate it is not about killing a model but about the nominated model 'not being in the game' at the end of the game. So if a model is killed and then the same name model is summoned (and in the case of a Master since it's a unique model technically the new model is the same as the one originally selected, it can't be different, there's only one version of that model; you could think of that summoned model as a resurected/revived version of the previously killed one) I think that Master still counts as being in the game at the end of the game and Assassinate would then fail.
For Hoffman's scheme it's different though as it involves killing a master. In this instance when a Vik is killed although she might be summoned again, she still counts as having been killed I would think.
:)

Agreed, you don't get assassinate for killing Hamelin or Levi the first time - you get it for killing them for good ;)

If you want to look at it an other way both Leviticus and Hamlin are being placed where as Viktoria is being summoned.

As a comparison an other scheme that requires you kill a model eg Rotten bell, if you kill and your opponent make another from the same corpse counter, you don't have to kill that belle again

[poulpox]

As a comparison an other scheme that requires you kill a model eg Rotten bell, if you kill and your opponent make another from the same corpse counter, you don't have to kill that belle again

You could argue however that belles are not unique unlike Viks. If a model is unique isn't every and any model representing them, representing the same model, ie if a summoned model represents a unique Vik, doesn't this model automatically represent the one which was targeted by Assassinate?

[mythicFOX]

Thou shalt not confuse the fluff and the rules.

Besides, Electrical Creations and Ikiryo are unique and are killed and re-summoned but are still different models.

[poulpox]

Besides, Electrical Creations and Ikiryo are unique and are killed and re-summoned but are still different models.

Good point :)