Lost Focus vs Empty Vessel

[Csonti]

Situation: Nico kills the Desolation Engine with Decay and Empty Vessel kicks in. What types of models are generated from the death of the model?

Lost Focus says no counters dropped and 2 SPA's generated.

Empty Vessel says no counters and (in this case) 3 Mindless Zombies generated.

So is it 2 SPA's or 3 Mindless Zombies or all of them?

[Wodschow]

Since the Rule of Equivalency is no more then all of the 5 models could potentially be brought into play (actually - they even would've been so before as the Zombies are placed and not summoned).

You'd place the Mindless Zombies first as Nicodem is the acting model and then stop when/if you run out of space..


Edit(again): Apparently the SPAs don't have to be placed in base contact, so it's unlikely that you'd run out of space, meep!

[goblyn13]

You would get 2 Steampunk Abominations only.

Based off of the wording for the Desolation engine.



Lost Focus: When this model is killed or sacrificed, Summon 2 Steampunk Abominations to it before it is removed from play. This model does not generate Corpse or Scrap Counters.


The second sentence in Lost Focus it a separate sentence of that ability say that this model does not generate Corpse Counters. Add in the statement from Mindless Zombies:


Walking Dead: Counts as a Corpse Counter, but cannot be picked up.

Therefore since the Desolation Engine is unable to generate Corpse Counters, it would be incapable of generating Mindless Zombies.

[Wodschow]

Hmm..

I suppose that is correct, but when the resolution rules break the time-continuum it doesn't sit too well with me..

Like..

A) Resolve Empty Vessel first as it's the acting models effect to the event that happened -> Place Mindless Zombies as a result.

B) Resolve Lost Focus next -> reverse A) as the Zombies can't be generated now.



Also...


"Cb/Ca(C) Empty Vessel: After killing a living or Undead
defender with a Cane Strike or Decay, place a number of
Mindless Zombies equal to the defender’s base size in base
contact with the defender before it is removed from play.
Defender does not generate Corpse Counters."

Soeh..

You wouldn't EVER place any Mindless Zombies from Empty Vessel because the trigger itself prevents them from being generated?

[Pink Horror]

Well, the zombies may count as corpse counters once they are on the board, but they are not "generated".

[marshimartian]

"Cb/Ca(C) Empty Vessel: After killing a living or Undead
defender with a Cane Strike or Decay, place a number of
Mindless Zombies equal to the defender’s base size in base
contact with the defender before it is removed from play.
Defender does not generate Corpse Counters."

Soeh..

You wouldn't EVER place any Mindless Zombies from Empty Vessel because the trigger itself prevents them from being generated?

I'd have to agree with this, the explanation of the ruling is contradictory, the zombies are placed by Nicodem's trigger, not "generated". I'm ok with the ruling, but would like a better explanation if possible

[Sandwich]

Hmm..

I suppose that is correct, but when the resolution rules break the time-continuum it doesn't sit too well with me..

Like..

A) Resolve Empty Vessel first as it's the acting models effect to the event that happened -> Place Mindless Zombies as a result.

B) Resolve Lost Focus next -> reverse A) as the Zombies can't be generated now.



Also...


"Cb/Ca(C) Empty Vessel: After killing a living or Undead
defender with a Cane Strike or Decay, place a number of
Mindless Zombies equal to the defender’s base size in base
contact with the defender before it is removed from play.
Defender does not generate Corpse Counters."

Soeh..

You wouldn't EVER place any Mindless Zombies from Empty Vessel because the trigger itself prevents them from being generated?

I'm on this boat.
Not to dispute a RM, but it seems like you'd probably get everything involved.

2 SPA and 3 MZ.