Poison is vague

[Pink Horror]

I'm trying to find out if there is any section on Poison in the rules, other than its ability description. The poison description starts out with:


The affected model gains...

I cannot find out how a model actually gets affected by poison. Where is that part of the rules?

[LoboStele]

Various weapons or abilities will cause a model to take poison. Look at Coppelius or the Performer for examples.

[Pink Horror]

Ok. I own Coppelius. It says Long Clawed Fingers: Poison 2. It does not say when any other model would be "affected" by it, and neither does the poison section in the rules manual.

I thought the question was clear... I'm not asking what models have the Poison special rule. I am asking, how is a model "affected" by poison? Where in the rulebook is this process described? The cards just have the keyword, no rules on when or how Poison triggers. I know what to do once it happens - place poison counters on the model - but I do not know when that would happen. When Coppelius attacks, does he get poisoned, or does the enemy? Is it on the hit, or on the damage? Does he have to hit at all? I mean, I have good guesses for these questions, but I want to know, where are the printed answers?

[Q'iq'el]

It's an ability of the weapon, isn't it? In such case it'd trigger when your strike hits, I think (even if there's no direct damage).

I can't find any reference for it in the new Rules Manual though. I'd assume it's a general rule for all the talents assigned to the weapons (:+fate for damage etc), but I couldn't find it in the Talents/Weapons section as well.

[hippieshopper]

Yeah, when the weapon successfully strikes the target you gain X number of poison counters. It was ruled on the forum somewhere, I don't remember

You take X damage from poison counters when that model activates that is not blocked by armor or magical resistance. After that, you lose one counter.
If a model had 2 counters on it, it activates, takes 2 Wd, loses one, then the next time it activates, it takes 1 Wd.

Poison does not stack at all.
if you have Poison 2 on a model and hit it with anything that also has poison 2 on it, it will not be anything higher than that.
Poison 3 would take precedence of the Poison 2 though...and if a model is at 1 counter because of activation, hitting it again would "reset"

[Pink Horror]

Yeah, when the weapon successfully strikes the target you gain X number of poison counters. It was ruled on the forum somewhere, I don't remember

Oh, another forum rule that doesn't exist in a book?

So, it if happens on the hit, does that mean Coppelius inflicts Poison when he uses the trigger to replace all damage with causing Paralysis?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

No its an effect of a hit, you can cause zero damage and still inflict posion.

Poison rule falls under pg43 f. Poison is an effect from the ability of the weapon. You could apply them a stage f. However this thread shows they would apply sooner:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20176&page=4

It's not vague it is quite clear. Pg 12 and 19 also shed light on your question. The only criticism I see is that it is not all bundled up perfectly in one spot. The index is what I used and I guess it took a bit of logic to know what word to look up.

[Sandwich]

Oh, another forum rule that doesn't exist in a book?

So, it if happens on the hit, does that mean Coppelius inflicts Poison when he uses the trigger to replace all damage with causing Paralysis?

Not necessarily.

In Coppelius' specific case of applying Poison, it does not specify "After Damaging Defender" (See Malifaux Rat's Yellow Teeth weapon for "Models Damaged by this Weapon gain one Blight Counter) and so the next logical time at which Poison is applied would immediately after successfully Striking the target model.

[Pink Horror]

It's not vague it is quite clear. Pg 12 and 19 also shed light on your question. The only criticism I see is that it is not all bundled up perfectly in one spot. The index is what I used and I guess it took a bit of logic to know what word to look up.

Following your advice, I looked at pages 12 and 19. Page 12 lets me know weapons have special rules. It has one sentence about that. Page 19 explains what a counter is, and under Poison, tells me to go to another page. Neither says to apply weapon special rules when the weapon hits somebody, so it's vague, unless you can find some quote in the rulebook to that effect. If all you had was the rulebook, not this forum, how would you piece together that Poison happens when a weapon hits another model? Maybe I've missed that part of the rules. If so, it's easy to prove I'm wrong: show me. Also, the index could use some work. Try to find "base contact", "spirit", "blight token", "foggy", or even "poison".

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

pg 43 F apply results, poison is an effect so at that point it would be applied. Only part that is vague, is that you have to strike the oppenent.

[magicpockets]

I thought the question was clear...


Oh, another forum rule that doesn't exist in a book?


Following your advice, I looked at pages 12 and 19. Page 12 lets me know weapons have special rules. It has one sentence about that. Page 19 explains what a counter is, and under Poison, tells me to go to another page. Neither says to apply weapon special rules when the weapon hits somebody, so it's vague, unless you can find some quote in the rulebook to that effect. If all you had was the rulebook, not this forum, how would you piece together that Poison happens when a weapon hits another model? Maybe I've missed that part of the rules. If so, it's easy to prove I'm wrong: show me. Also, the index could use some work. Try to find "base contact", "spirit", "blight token", "foggy", or even "poison".

:thumpdown

[Q'iq'el]

I think it is less of a "forum only rule" and more of an unfortunate omission. Typically weapon special rules are included on the character's card and are specific as to how to apply them.

Poison and paired are the only general weapon rules I can think of and the later's mechanichs are described in the Combat section of the Rules Manual.

Poison, for reasons unknown, is also listed among general talents, abilities & trigges (paired isn't), which seems there might have been some confusion as to what kind of talent it is (i.e. not tied to weapon).


Last but not least, the oldest possible wording for Poson, in the Book 1, pre erata, indicated that you place these Poisons on target with no checks whatsoever. That means, as soon as you targeted an opponent with a poisoned weapon (obviously after checking the target is legal and the strike can go on), he'd receive the poison counters (regardless of hit). Obviously that wording was changed in the old errata to something identical or very similar to the Rules Manual wording... the question of how the Poison actually applies to the target hasn't been posed back then. I guess everybody just assumed it's on hit (even though original rules spoke only about having a target as a requirement).


If somebody brought it up earlier, it probably would be fixed in the Rules Manual. These things are more or less inevitable though - sooner or later the Rules Manual will need an Errata too. Hopefully it will be smaller and much more manageable. :D

[Sandwich]

If somebody brought it up earlier, it probably would be fixed in the Rules Manual. These things are more or less inevitable though - sooner or later the Rules Manual will need an Errata too. Hopefully it will be smaller and much more manageable. :D

And much more artsy.

[TheOneWhoFell]

pg 117 explains Poison # pretty clearly... *shrugs*

[Q'iq'el]

pg 117 explains Poison # pretty clearly... *shrugs*

It explains how poison works. It doesn't explain how poison gets applied.

Is it applied when poisoned weapon hits? Is it applied when it successfully damages? Or is it still working like it used to work in the first version of the Book 1, when (presumably) it was enough to attack someone with a poisoned weapon, to apply the poison, even if the attack missed (ie the attacker lost the duel)?

[Pink Horror]

:thumpdown

Yeah, that's productive.


pg 117 explains Poison # pretty clearly... *shrugs*

What am I missing?


It explains how poison works. It doesn't explain how poison gets applied.

Is it applied when poisoned weapon hits? Is it applied when it successfully damages? Or is it still working like it used to work in the first version of the Book 1, when (presumably) it was enough to attack someone with a poisoned weapon, to apply the poison, even if the attack missed (ie the attacker lost the duel)?

Oh my god, I thought no one else would ever acknowledge this. Thank you.

[nathaniel]

Poison is applied based on how it's delivered. For example, Candy uses the ability "Sours" and an enemy model gets 2 poison counters. Zoraida hits someone with Weapon, Voodoo Pins. They get 2 poison and then you move on to the damage flip. Just like any other weapon effect that doesn't specifically say a condition, it works on a hit.

[Q'iq'el]

Just like any other weapon effect that doesn't specifically say a condition, it works on a hit.

If you take a good look at the Rules Manual, you won't find general rule saying exactly that, will you?

Most of us figured out it works on a hit (and it's already been said in this thread). But if someone asks you to prove it, you can't.

[magicpockets]

Yeah, that's productive.



Funny, that was the same comment I was making about your attitude...

[Pink Horror]

Funny, that was the same comment I was making about your attitude...

Well, it's your choice whether to escalate rudeness. I mean, is that a productive comment to make? This makes me the kettle, right? Sorry for being rude, but a thumbs-down isn't polite either.

I'm trying to have a rules discussion. Yes, it's a bit frustrating when it seems like people are making replies off the top of their head, and telling me that problems I'm having difficulty solving are obvious, and not problems at all. I really did fetch my rulebook and read those pages I was asked to read. But how is your reply supposed to do anything other than upset me?

[hippieshopper]

Well, it's your choice whether to escalate rudeness. I mean, is that a productive comment to make? This makes me the kettle, right? Sorry for being rude, but a thumbs-down isn't polite either.

I'm trying to have a rules discussion. Yes, it's a bit frustrating when it seems like people are making replies off the top of their head, and telling me that problems I'm having difficulty solving are obvious, and not problems at all. I really did fetch my rulebook and read those pages I was asked to read. But how is your reply supposed to do anything other than upset me?

I understand your frustration. In the beginning your post was pretty "vague" as well, but I think most of the pieces of the puzzle are put into place now, the only one that is missing is a straight, definite response from a Rules Marshall to clarify exactly when and how it is applied.

Until then, I would suggest just asking your fellow Malifaux-ers and trying to reach a consensus for the time being. As you've probably already read, most people just assume it activates on a successful strike to a model.