Rasputinas Ice Pillars

[CannonFodder]

Can you put the ice pillars on top of objectives? ex dynamite from line in the sand.

[jmp_mydog]

Can you put the ice pillars on top of objectives? ex dynamite from line in the sand.

Ice pillars state they must be 1" from a model. The tokens and counters for strategies are effectively models, so NO.

[maverickman5]

Since when are tokens and counters considered models? Just because they are on a 30mm base doesn't make them models.

[Wodschow]

That's cheesy! (Edit: But, hey, this is Malifaux afterall ;) )

But I don't see anything in the rules to prevent you from doing it.

And the pillars can be broken.. So it'll only be a set-back, not make scenarioes impossible for the opponent.

[Slade]

Seems true, but don't forget that those pillars are breakable (Hardness 3).

[CannonFodder]

We play as you can, really slows down your opponent except Kirai. She just has a model go into the ice and interact, making it harder for me to disarm. The objectives are not terrain or models and normally can be moved threw.

I'm just mostly asking this as a possible FAQ question. Or to see if there was rule decision I missed earlier. I know every time I pull it off against a new player a discussion occurs about it.

I'm going to guess the same ruling will apply to Kaeris Fire Pillars.

[Keltheos]

Nope, 100% legal. Maybe not 100% sportsmany ;) , but legal.

[LoboStele]

I don't think Kirai's Spirits can do the trick you're talking about above though. The rule for Spirit says that they can stop over impassable terrain, but cannot stop inside of walls or other features like that. So I don't think they could end their movement INSIDE of an ice pillar in order to interact with the token.

Just means if you end up facing Raspy, better keep any units with Dg 4 or higher alive. ;)

[Pink Horror]

When something breakable is destroyed, the manual says it turns into Ht 0 severe terrain - it is not completely removed. So, does that mean the Ht 0 terrain will block off the objective for the whole game, making it completely inaccessible? Can Lilith drop a forest on top of something, sealing it off for good?

[Cats Laughing]

I believe severe terrain can be entered (it just slows you down, iirc), so it wouldn't block access to the marker.

[Pink Horror]

How can you access a marker that is under a piece of terrain?

[CannonFodder]

How can you access a marker that is under a piece of terrain?

Same as if it was in a forest. We treat the sever terrain as if it was a forest.

[CannonFodder]

I don't think Kirai's Spirits can do the trick you're talking about above though. The rule for Spirit says that they can stop over impassable terrain, but cannot stop inside of walls or other features like that. So I don't think they could end their movement INSIDE of an ice pillar in order to interact with the token.

Just means if you end up facing Raspy, better keep any units with Dg 4 or higher alive. ;)

I know the book sais spirits can end its action inside terrain, and the basic 'play it nice rule' is that you can end your action in terrain, just not the activation. And if you have Shikome that gets fast it can move in do the interaction then move out and end activation.

[Pink Horror]

Same as if it was in a forest. We treat the sever terrain as if it was a forest.

Who says the marker is "in" the severe terrain. The original question was if the pillar could be "on top" of the marker. The answer was yes. Then, after being broken, the pillar goes from Ht 5 to Ht 0, and from impassible to severe - I get that - but it is still in the same place, and the rules do not say to take all of the markers out from under it and put them on top.

I was responding to someone who said that a Spirit could not get to the marker until it was broken. The person said that, because the spirit cannot stop "inside" the terrain, it could not access the marker. Well, after it is broken, the pillar is still there, so what is the difference? When does the token float to the top? If it's not accessible to a spirit that stops on top of the Ht 5 impassible pillar, it's not accessible to a living model that stops on top of the Ht 0 severe pillar.

If the pillar can literally be "on top" of the marker, then absolutely nothing can literally be in "base contact" with the marker, because the pillar is physically in the way, and cannot be removed - it can only have its stats changed.

[Cats Laughing]

Most games do not actually play completely in 3 dimensions. The HT 5 impassable Ice Pillar stops you from reaching the marker, not because it is physically on top of the marker, but because the larger base size and impassable trait prevent you from reaching the location of the marker in a two dimensional sense. Once the Ice Pillar is reduced to it's HT 0 severe terrain state, you can move across the base and reach the two dimensional location of the marker to interact with in.

[being silly]
I suppose if you want to get weird rules-lawyery and play with fully 3-D rules, you should remember that markers used for strategies and schemes are supposed to be actual 30mm bases, which means that if you physically put a 50mm base (for the Ice Pillar) on top of the marker, then you'll have a gap of ~3-4mm between the bottom of the Ice Pillar and the actual game mat/table. Any model with a small enough footprint attachment to their own base would then be able to slide their base under the Ice Pillar to reach/contact the marker and interact with it. [/being silly]

[Q'iq'el]

How can you access a marker that is under a piece of terrain?

A marker or a counter would always stay on top of the terrain, I think. It would be on top of the pillar too, I believe. It's just that pillar or hazardous terrain would make it difficult for most models to access the marker, but it would never completely block it (and you cannot place counters in impassable terrain).

I once summoned Illusionary Forest on top of the Treasure marker, because opponent was about to grab it. He had to move at half speed through the forest to get it, so by the time he reached it I had enough models around to kill him and grab the Treasure.

Pillars don't seem much different.

[hippieshopper]

I would just refrain from doing that altogether

It's got too many gray areas and rules lawyering involved...besides...it's kinda douchey.

Sure you could do that, but if everyone things you're being an arsehat, most people won't want to play you.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

How is that a bad move? Her whole crew is incredibly slow this is a tactical that you would need to win the initiative to pull off? She would no means to catch a crew who picked it up her crew moves slower than most. It seems like legitimate compensation.

[CannonFodder]

How is that a bad move? Her whole crew is incredibly slow this is a tactical that you would need to win the initiative to pull off? She would no means to catch a crew who picked it up her crew moves slower than most. It seems like legitimate compensation.

This is true, Had someone wanting to start Malifaux, and was going to start with Rasputina. But warned him off because it of the speed and the lack of ability to some strategies. She'll got major limitations due to speed.

[goblyn13]

This is true, Had someone wanting to start Malifaux, and was going to start with Rasputina. But warned him off because it of the speed and the lack of ability to some strategies. She'll got major limitations due to speed.

That's what Snowstorm is for. :)

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

True but I don't play proxies. If I run him I wouldn't waste a pillar for that.

[Buhallin]

Terrain is never "on" anything. It is an area of the board which has certain characteristics - typically Blocking, Impassable, and/or Severe.

While people say the Ice Pillars are "on" the token, there's no vertical stacking. What actually happens is the area of terrain gets created surrounding the token. That terrain is Impassable, so nobody can get into base contact with it because they cannot enter the area which the Pillars occupy. If the Pillars are destroyed they become Severe, which models CAN enter.

You're trying to treat the Pillars as an object, rather than as terrain by the rules, which it is.

[LoboStele]

Excellent point, Buhallin.

So, by virtue of that understanding, if the Pillars are destroyed and become Ht 0 severe terrain, then that would automatically put them 'below' any objective markers on the table.

[Pink Horror]

Terrain is never "on" anything. It is an area of the board which has certain characteristics - typically Blocking, Impassable, and/or Severe.

While people say the Ice Pillars are "on" the token, there's no vertical stacking. What actually happens is the area of terrain gets created surrounding the token. That terrain is Impassable, so nobody can get into base contact with it because they cannot enter the area which the Pillars occupy. If the Pillars are destroyed they become Severe, which models CAN enter.

You're trying to treat the Pillars as an object, rather than as terrain by the rules, which it is.

So, a Spirit or a model with Float can get the marker, right? The pillar doesn't have to be destroyed to go "below" the marker, because there is no "below", right?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Nope because maker can't pass through blocking terrain and check rules on spirit and treasure hunt spirits lose the ability to pass through objects once they pick up a marker.

Question you could ask though is cam they interact with a marker in a pillar but you would want to open another thread.

[Buhallin]

A Spirit cannot end its move on impassable terrain, so no, it wouldn't be able to end a move in base contact in order to grab the treasure, regardless of what might come after.

Someone suggested a few pages back that they actually treat it as ending the activation in the terrain, but by the strict rules it's the move.

[Pink Horror]

Nope because maker can't pass through blocking terrain and check rules on spirit and treasure hunt spirits lose the ability to pass through objects once they pick up a marker.

Question you could ask though is cam they interact with a marker in a pillar but you would want to open another thread.

Where does the Treasure rules say anything about blocking terrain? This thread was created regarding the dynamite markers, which use Interact actions. Why would I create another thread for exactly the same topic as the original poster?


A Spirit cannot end its move on impassable terrain, so no, it wouldn't be able to end a move in base contact in order to grab the treasure, regardless of what might come after.

Someone suggested a few pages back that they actually treat it as ending the activation in the terrain, but by the strict rules it's the move.


Models with the Spirit Characteristic are non-living models that can move through other models and do not block LoS. Spirits can move over and stop on impassible terrain. Spirits are immune to Morale Duels and suffer half damage from non-magical sources. When they are killed, Spirits do not leave Counters of any type.

[Q'iq'el]

Terrain is never "on" anything. It is an area of the board which has certain characteristics - typically Blocking, Impassable, and/or Severe.

While people say the Ice Pillars are "on" the token, there's no vertical stacking. What actually happens is the area of terrain gets created surrounding the token. That terrain is Impassable, so nobody can get into base contact with it because they cannot enter the area which the Pillars occupy. If the Pillars are destroyed they become Severe, which models CAN enter.

You're trying to treat the Pillars as an object, rather than as terrain by the rules, which it is.

I gave it a bit more thought, I realized that pillars are impassable and it occurred to me that the most RAW way to play it is this:

Counters and Markers cannot be placed in the impassable terrain. You remove a Counter or a Marker to place the terrain (a Pillar, Illusionary forest etc.), and then you place the Counter or Marker as close as you can to the original position, but so that it doesn't overlap the impassable terrain.

IMHO you cannot block a Counter or Marker with pillars, but situationally you can block direct access to the Counter or Marker with them (as the model will have to walk around the pillar, which may not be easy or possible) and possibly shift the Counter/Marker a bit.

If the terrain is "passable", that is to say we deal with Illusionary forest etc, you just place the Counter or Marker back on its original position, on the top of the terrain.


edit: Fixed for correct terminology. Malifaux differentiates between Counters, Markers and Tokens. The former two are not terrain (i.e. they cannot be covered with terrain, they just lie on the table. They cannot also get "inside" of the terrain, as they lay on the top of the table) but they are physical presence on the table (can be picked, dropped, moved or interacted depending on the counter/marker). Neither can be placed on impassable terrain (even partially).

Tokens can be placed anywhere, but they are just reminders - they cannot be picked up or interacted in any way, so it doesn't matter.

[hippieshopper]

Pretty much what Q'iq'el said

If people did that trick to me, fine...I'll roll with it but you'll be walking away from the table funny because I'll kick you in the ballbag.

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should.
A guy CAN fill a football helmet full of shaving cream and walk around naked singing the national anthem, but he probably shouldn't because it's indecent exposure.

[Manicmac]

1: Malifaux is a game. No need to kick anyone anywhere for playing the game.:D
2: If a Crew/Henchman/Master can do something, then they should do it. Though this is a game, we do at least attempt to win right?
3: Different Masters/Crews/Henchman have certain magics that may seem unfair to an opponent, but that is the nature of the game.
4: Playing the game will reveal many magics of Crews/Henchman/Masters, it is not "dirty" to play to the full potential of your crew/henchman/Master. To cry foul when one does so is bad form.
5:Ice Pillars are blocking terrain. They would block the token, not cover it. Once broken, they would be difficult terrain to get through to the token.

[Q'iq'el]

5:Ice Pillars are blocking terrain. They would block the token, not cover it. Once broken, they would be difficult terrain to get through to the token.

You've made plenty of mistakes in this one point:

1) If I'm not mistaken, on Rasputina's V2 card the Ice Pillars are also classified as impassable.

2) Dynamite Markers are Markers, not Tokens.

3) Markers are not terrain. That means terrain cannot suddenly "block" a marker - marker will always be on top of the table. If your pillar pops up where marker is, you have to remove the marker, place the pillar and put the marker back.

4) Markers follow the same placement rules as Counters. Counters cannot be placed, even partially in impassable terrain.


Ergo, when you place the Dynamite Marker back on the table, after placing the Pillar, you have to move it to the edge of the pillar (so that it doesn't overlap).

There's no other way, to legally do it.


It's an old rule of the thumb I learned back when I started playing Warhammer - it is a miniature game and it is a tabletop game. Rules are not abstract, which we forget all too often in the age of internet forums. Rules tell you what to do with game pieces on your table and if there is a combination of "movements" which may seem possible from the rules, but you cannot actually do it with your game pieces, that means you cannot do it.

Since you have to re-arrange the Markers after placing new terrain, and since you cannot place them on the top of impassable terrain (Pillars), you cannot place them there. It doesn't stop you from casting Pillars on top of them, but it will forcibly displace them.

[Sandwich]

1: Malifaux is a game. No need to kick anyone anywhere for playing the game.:D
2: If a Crew/Henchman/Master can do something, then they should do it. Though this is a game, we do at least attempt to win right?
3: Different Masters/Crews/Henchman have certain magics that may seem unfair to an opponent, but that is the nature of the game.
4: Playing the game will reveal many magics of Crews/Henchman/Masters, it is not "dirty" to play to the full potential of your crew/henchman/Master. To cry foul when one does so is bad form.
5:Ice Pillars are blocking terrain. They would block the token, not cover it. Once broken, they would be difficult terrain to get through to the token.

I'm on your boat, really.
I pull no punches.

Although honestly, there are some masters so full of cheese it's just no fun for people to play them when you know what you're doing.
So it's always nice to just throw out a few tricks and leave the rest of your bag at home.

[CannonFodder]

Pretty much what Q'iq'el said

If people did that trick to me, fine...I'll roll with it but you'll be walking away from the table funny because I'll kick you in the ballbag.

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should.
A guy CAN fill a football helmet full of shaving cream and walk around naked singing the national anthem, but he probably shouldn't because it's indecent exposure.

You would get banned SOOOOooooo fast from our LGS. Using dirty tricks to the max is normal. Which is one of the reason I push for FAQ so much. Too know what is a dirty trick, what is illegal.

:banned:

As for the spirit ending its activation in terrain. It sais
"Spirits can move over and stop on impassible terrain" , effectively hiding inside terrain. But the consensus in our LGS (and we think it was discussed in the forums someplace - WE WANT FAQ :deal: ) that you can't end you activation in terrain. after a couple games which kirai being untouchable we realized it was beyond legal cheese, and was broken. We use the same type of rule for Climbing, you can end you action on the side of the building but you can't end your turn on the side of a building, but you can end an activation.

We have dozen western style building in our terrain pool, and actually use the spirits and climbing rule a lot. So far had had games with 30% of the models on roof at one time, sniping everyone around, and coryphee duet, jumping rooftop to rooftop. No one risked the streets.

I think Manicmac has it right, that if you can do it in a game you should be able to. Now if you always bring the same cheese to the table and never mix it up or try something new in our LGS you find that you will get fewer and fewer players to play against. I've seen gamers who only buy one army/force, and its the cheesiest one they found on the internet get Socially Banned and can only play in a tournament because of forced pairings. The game is for fun, and a sometimes I've come to a table and my opponent sais 'I want to try something new', which is our unofficial way of saying, play something fun not cheese. Other times we just come out and say bring something competitive we want to bring something to the table that is pure unprocessed unpasteurized french cheese :thcow2: . (I'm from Quebec, Americans have no idea how strong smelly that stuff can be).

getting back on topic, I think Rasputinas ice pillars are cheese but legal, while spirits hiding in building was beyond cheese and needed to be changed. It reached a point that no one wanted to face kirai and forfeit. So the kirai players agreeded on this limitation to be and actually play her instead of switching to other forces.

[CannonFodder]

You've made plenty of mistakes in this one point:

1) If I'm not mistaken, on Rasputina's V2 card the Ice Pillars are also classified as impassable.

CF:Agreed

2) Dynamite Markers are Markers, not Tokens.

CF:Agreed

3) Markers are not terrain. That means terrain cannot suddenly "block" a marker - marker will always be on top of the table. If your pillar pops up where marker is, you have to remove the marker, place the pillar and put the marker back.

CF: Its not in the rules, It sais when placed they cannot, nothing about things changing afterwards.

4) Markers follow the same placement rules as Counters. Counters cannot be placed, even partially in impassable terrain.

CF: Agreed, cannot be placed


Ergo, when you place the Dynamite Marker back on the table, after placing the Pillar, you have to move it to the edge of the pillar (so that it doesn't overlap).

CF: Not how I read it, You never actually pick up and replace the marker.


It's an old rule of the thumb I learned back when I started playing Warhammer - it is a miniature game and it is a tabletop game. Rules are not abstract, which we forget all too often in the age of internet forums. Rules tell you what to do with game pieces on your table and if there is a combination of "movements" which may seem possible from the rules, but you cannot actually do it with your game pieces, that means you cannot do it.

CF: I've played about a dozen minis games, and one thing I've learned is that each game is unique and you can't automatically carry over rules from one tot he other. I've lost track of how many time I've done the same thing and been overruled.

Since you have to re-arrange the Markers after placing new terrain, and since you cannot place them on the top of impassable terrain (Pillars), you cannot place them there. It doesn't stop you from casting Pillars on top of them, but it will forcibly displace them.

CF: You not re-arranging anything. I guess it a good thing we don't play in the same LGS because we wouldn't agree on this. Another reasson a FAQ should be done...*Hint...Hint*

[Q'iq'el]

CF: You not re-arranging anything. I guess it a good thing we don't play in the same LGS because we wouldn't agree on this. Another reasson a FAQ should be done...*Hint...Hint*

This isn's spelled out, but it is obvious. It is obvious, because you deal with physical objects, not abstract rules. When I spoke about a rule-of-the-thumb, I didn't quote a "warhammer rule". It is the general approach that should be taken to every single tabletop game - think in terms of what is happening with the minis, counters and objects you use as terrain - rule wouldn't tell you to balance your tree on your corpse counter, it just doesn't happen. It isn't a virtual reality and it isn't a computer game.


So what is obvious:

Counters and Markers are not terrain (spelled out in the rules).

Terrain is actually part of the table - we play on it, we cannot interact with it unless rules allow for that (spelled out partially in the terrain rules).

Terrain can be occupied by other items, unless it's impassable. (spelled out in the terrain rules)

There's only one way for a Marker to be on the table and that is to occupy terrain. It cannot find itself under terrain in general and it can't find itself under or over impassable terrain, because there's no option for markers to occupy such terrain.


What I proposed is a mechanic I assumed to be correct way to dealing with non-described situation. I agree it should be answered.
However, it isn't a mechanic unheard of. On the contrary, you have to do it all the time. You do it when you summon Illusionary forest on the top of counters/markers (you move counters around to make space and place the marker back within your forest base).
When Waldgeists walk a forest, which can be huge in terms of terrain's base, you often have to replace multiple models, counters and markers, as sometimes many models will be left behind the forest, or will be engulfed by the moving forest. This is not described in the rules, but it is logical solution, because forest is terrain and objects stay on the tabletop.


If you inist, however, that one cannot move or re-arrange the Marker, then the answer to the problem is really simple:

Whenever you cannot do something on the table, for any reason, your ability fizzles. If you want to summon but have no place for the model, the summoning spell fizzles. If you cast Ice Pillar on the top of the marker, it will fizzle, because otherwise it would create impossible situation (a Marker occupying a piece of terrain which cannot be occupied by any objects).

[Buhallin]

Terrain can be occupied by other items, unless it's impassable. (spelled out in the terrain rules)

...

If you cast Ice Pillar on the top of the marker, it will fizzle, because otherwise it would create impossible situation (a Marker occupying a piece of terrain which cannot be occupied by any objects).
Except that the first part is not absolute - abilities and the like can create exceptions to it, just like any other rule. And since we have the High Marshall himself saying it's legal, all the way back on Page 1, your last bit is simply wrong.

I would go back to what someone presented earlier (may even have been Q): The terrain essentially appears underneath the token. Not sure why this is so complex.

@Pink Horror: I'm not entirely sure what your point is with the blind rules quotes. Yes, you quotes the Spirit rules. It would help if you elaborate a bit on your point.

[CannonFodder]

This isn's spelled out, but it is obvious. It is obvious, because you deal with physical objects, not abstract rules. When I spoke about a rule-of-the-thumb, I didn't quote a "warhammer rule". It is the general approach that should be taken to every single tabletop game - think in terms of what is happening with the minis, counters and objects you use as terrain - rule wouldn't tell you to balance your tree on your corpse counter, it just doesn't happen. It isn't a virtual reality and it isn't a computer game.


So what is obvious:

Counters and Markers are not terrain (spelled out in the rules).

Terrain is actually part of the table - we play on it, we cannot interact with it unless rules allow for that (spelled out partially in the terrain rules).

Terrain can be occupied by other items, unless it's impassable. (spelled out in the terrain rules)

CF: Just reread the paragraph on P58 above the Title Traits, I didn't see that before. Its not in an obvious place to look. I'm beginning to see your argument. Should have been mentioned under the Impassable description

There's only one way for a Marker to be on the table and that is to occupy terrain. It cannot find itself under terrain in general and it can't find itself under or over impassable terrain, because there's no option for markers to occupy such terrain.


What I proposed is a mechanic I assumed to be correct way to dealing with non-described situation. I agree it should be answered.
However, it isn't a mechanic unheard of. On the contrary, you have to do it all the time. You do it when you summon Illusionary forest on the top of counters/markers (you move counters around to make space and place the marker back within your forest base).
When Waldgeists walk a forest, which can be huge in terms of terrain's base, you often have to replace multiple models, counters and markers, as sometimes many models will be left behind the forest, or will be engulfed by the moving forest. This is not described in the rules, but it is logical solution, because forest is terrain and objects stay on the tabletop.

CF:For gaming purposes I kinda follow the star trek style explanation for this type of terrain. they occupy the same space and time without actually touching. So a moving forest is neither on top or underneath the markers/tokens and there is no replacing at all, they just stay there. While in the area it occupies other objects have an effect put upon them.


If you inist, however, that one cannot move or re-arrange the Marker, then the answer to the problem is really simple:

Whenever you cannot do something on the table, for any reason, your ability fizzles. If you want to summon but have no place for the model, the summoning spell fizzles. If you cast Ice Pillar on the top of the marker, it will fizzle, because otherwise it would create impossible situation (a Marker occupying a piece of terrain which cannot be occupied by any objects).

Based on the Paragraph on p58, I have to agree with you. That the marker cannot exist inside the impassible terrain. I'll bring it up with the LGS to make sure we play correctly. If it was the intent of Wyrd to allow it, it needs to be an errata, or make the ice pillars Climbable and token on top. Since there were ways to overcome it it didn't seam out of the question.

FYI: I like the way you argue your opinion. Breaking the disagreement to more itemized smaller points and agreeing on some of the smaller facts, it got us to the more specific point of the conflict. Trying to argue larger points are sometime tiring.

[CannonFodder]

Except that the first part is not absolute - abilities and the like can create exceptions to it, just like any other rule. And since we have the High Marshall himself saying it's legal, all the way back on Page 1, your last bit is simply wrong.

I would go back to what someone presented earlier (may even have been Q): The terrain essentially appears underneath the token. Not sure why this is so complex.

@Pink Horror: I'm not entirely sure what your point is with the blind rules quotes. Yes, you quotes the Spirit rules. It would help if you elaborate a bit on your point.

I know I started this thread and started on your side hoping for confirmation on what I saw, but I have to agree now its not possible based on the new evidence. I do agree the text in the book is not absolute, the reason its not absolute is that some game effect specifically counter it in their description (ie spirits). So unless there is a statement :deal: in the book / FAQ or official ruling I gotta agree its not legal.

If you LGS wants to say its legal go ahead, but officially there is more info against than for. before I saw that paragraph I believed only not legal when placing markers, not period.

I'm disappointed, I liked that effect, but I'll play the right way.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

But there is one under line statement that over rule whether info for against and that is a rule marshal statement on pg.1 of thread.

[CannonFodder]

But there is one under line statement that over rule whether info for against and that is a rule marshal statement on pg.1 of thread.

Well That trumps... I mean Red Jokers all the above discussions. I didn't realize Keltheos was a marshal.

Yay... I got my :deal:

:amen:

[Buhallin]

If we grant that it's not possible for a token to be in impassable terrain (which I'm not convinced of) then we have something of a paradox in the rules. I see a few possible ways to resolve this:

1. The pillars work.
2. The token moves.
3. The pillars fail.

(2) and (3) are, to be blunt, fiction - there's absolutely nothing in the rules which allow either of these. Please don't bring precedent from other games into this one, it never ends well. So, even if we do have something of a paradox, what's the least-cheaty way to resolve it?

And is the token being in impassable terrain really impossible? I think it's possible to read the "Unless it has the impassable trait, terrain can be occupied by other items" line as being a positive statement about terrain in general being something you can enter, rather than an explicit "Nothing can ever be in impassable terrain". It may be a bit of a stretch, but it's possible. Combine that with Kel's ruling at the very beginning, and I think it's fine.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Well That trumps... I mean Red Jokers all the above discussions. I didn't realize Keltheos was a marshal.

Yay... I got my :deal:

:amen:

:lol: I have always enjoyed your candor CF

[Q'iq'el]

Except that the first part is not absolute - abilities and the like can create exceptions to it, just like any other rule. And since we have the High Marshall himself saying it's legal, all the way back on Page 1, your last bit is simply wrong.

My last bit was simply an alternative proposition, in case someone can't accept that appearance of the Pillar would simply re-arrange the Markers on the table (so that a Marker wouldn't end up in the impassable terrain).

As for the Kelthos response on the page 1... I'm not sure he took into consideration the Pillar is impassable terrain, because the answer is too laconic to address all the problems with the solution he gave. Marshals have been known to change their rulings after deeper consideration of the issue, so it is worth to keep pointing out all the issues with current ruling.

If you can't place Markers in impassable terrain, but you can place impassable terrain on markers, well, it seems like a loophole and something going against the intention of the rules.

Specific rules may override general rules, of course, but they need to specifically state they are an exception. Pillars on the contrary are worded to be regular piece of terrain with all the normal parameters, so they should adhere to general terrain rules.

If Kaelthas confirms that he took the fact Pillars are impassable terrain into consideration and that objects can end up in impassable terrain in this and similar situations during the game, despite the general rules from the page 58, then so be it.

[Pink Horror]

@Pink Horror: I'm not entirely sure what your point is with the blind rules quotes. Yes, you quotes the Spirit rules. It would help if you elaborate a bit on your point.

You said over and over again that spirits cannot stop on impassible terrain to get to the marker.

[Buhallin]

You said over and over again that spirits cannot stop on impassible terrain to get to the marker.
No, I said they cannot stop IN impassable terrain to get the marker.

Spirits can move through impassable terrain, such as the ice pillars, but they cannot stop while inside it. They can also end up on top of certain types of impassable terrain, where they can stop.

So a wall is impassable terrain. A spirit can pass through it, but must end its move completely clear of it.

An area of extreme rubble could be considered impassable, but a Spirit could end its move standing on top of it.

So whether or not the Spirit can pick up the token depends on whether you consider the token to be underneath the pillars, or on top of them. If they're on top, then a spirit able to get to the Ht 5 could pick it up (Shikome as the best example). If they're underneath, then the Spirit cannot end a move inside the pillars to grab it.

The on top/underneath is still open to interpretation.

[Masque]

No, I said they cannot stop IN impassable terrain to get the marker.

May I direct your attention to the following:


A Spirit cannot end its move on impassable terrain, so no, it wouldn't be able to end a move in base contact in order to grab the treasure, regardless of what might come after.

[Buhallin]

Whoops. That would be a typo then.

The distinction between ending ON and ending IN has been made rather clear by Keltheos.

Seriously, people, we're trying to help - but if your intent is to be argumentative, as several seem to be lately, you should probably try and do a little more research first. The search function works wonders.

[CannonFodder]

this is the clearest single rule wrangler quote i found on spirits in terrain.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=230725&postcount=4

Basically you can't end your activation in terrain (rule), but from the looks of it you can end your action in terrain(interpretation). Thats how our LGS agreed to be the most balanced where spirits can get the benefits of their ability without actually completely unbalancing the game.

[LoboStele]

this is the clearest single rule wrangler quote i found on spirits in terrain.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=230725&postcount=4

Basically you can't end your activation in terrain (rule), but from the looks of it you can end your action in terrain(interpretation). Thats how our LGS agreed to be the most balanced where spirits can get the benefits of their ability without actually completely unbalancing the game.

The rule is that you cannot end your action IN impassable terrain (like inside a rock), but you can end an action ON impassable terrain (like hovering over a pit, or over some incredibly rough terrain, like worse than severe). It's really as simple as that.

[Buhallin]

this is the clearest single rule wrangler quote i found on spirits in terrain.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=230725&postcount=4

Basically you can't end your activation in terrain (rule), but from the looks of it you can end your action in terrain(interpretation). Thats how our LGS agreed to be the most balanced where spirits can get the benefits of their ability without actually completely unbalancing the game.
The next post down in the same thread is this:

Spirits can stop their movement 'on' impassible terrain (i.e. they can hover over the pit of nasty broken glass unlike other models. Spirits cannot, however, end their movement so they are sitting 'within' something with the impassible trait. They cannot hide themselves in hills, etc.
Emphasis mine.

Page 34-35 in the RM covers movement, and "movement" is pretty clearly a single effect. Taking a Walk action, and ending that action inside impassable terrain, would be ending your movement within impassable terrain - hence not allowed.

[Pink Horror]

The next post down in the same thread is this:

Emphasis mine.

Page 34-35 in the RM covers movement, and "movement" is pretty clearly a single effect. Taking a Walk action, and ending that action inside impassable terrain, would be ending your movement within impassable terrain - hence not allowed.

Okay, we agree on this. So, if a model cannot be inside impassible terrain, how can a marker be inside impassible terrain? Anyway, the height does not matter, because the ice pillar is not elevated terrain. Anything standing on it would be at Ht 0, which is where you say the marker is, right?

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

A marker is not a model so not seeing your argument.

[Q'iq'el]

A marker is not a model so not seeing your argument.

Marker is an non-terrain item. Rules for terrain prohibit "other items" from "occupying" impassable terrain. Models are listed among "other items", but it is clearly a non-exclusive list. When we consider the Markers and Counters own placement rule, it start to seem like the intention is to make it impossible to block access to them completely. In fact every game object which isn't a terrain piece itself, is probably one of those "other items" and thus cannot occupy impassable terrain.

(See general terrain rules, not rules for impassable terrain. Page 58).

[Manicmac]

Can you put the ice pillars on top of objectives? ex dynamite from line in the sand.

Back the the original Question, It is MY opinion you cannot put Ice Pillars on top of markers. When placing a marker, and IAW the rules, markers are placed like counters not overlapping a models base or impassable terrain. I read this as a rule to make it possible for all models to be able to get to the marker.
You could use the Ice Pillars to BLOCK a path and make it harder for the enemy model to reach the marker, not impossible. Once formed, the pillars are terrain, Height 5, Blocking, Breakable, (Hardness 3), and impassable.
It is still possible to get to the marker, by either going around the ice pillar terrain or destroying the pillar reducing it from impassable.
Some may argue that placing the ice pillar directly on top of the marker is, albeit, cheesy:D still "legal" as it is breakable, I agree/disagree. The purpose of terrain is to "provide tactical options for crews to exploit." (IAW RM pg 58), Placing an ice pillar ON a marker would violate the spirit of the rule (my opinion), though still "legal", as a models specific rule can "break the rules" (IAW RM pg 7). By placing ice pillars around the marker would you satisfy the ability of the caster, the RM, and the opponent.
Another example: Walgeist. . .may place a woods terrain piece. . .in keeping with the above, this would displace the marker to IN the woods terrain, not Below the woods terrain. As woods are severe above, not impassable below. Unless you have Mortimer start digging. . . .
Again this is a game and I believe the spirit of the game, though play to win, should be followed and not exploited so one can win no matter what.

[Wodschow]

Keltheos, who is by the way a Rules Marshal, said this on the first page:


Nope, 100% legal. Maybe not 100% sportsmany http://wyrd-games.net/forum/../images/smilies/wink.gif , but legal.

Why is the legality of it still being discussed?

[Q'iq'el]

Keltheos, who is by the way a Rules Marshal, said this on the first page:



Why is the legality of it still being discussed?

Because Kelthos didn't address the obvious rule conflict with page 58, where Terrain rules state that no other item can occupy impassable terrain (including models and presumably Markers and Counters too).[/quote]

On top of a Marker isn't the same as inside one. Putting an Ice Pillar over a Marker does not = the Marker being within the Pillar, it's beneath it.

[Pink Horror]

Keltheos, who is by the way a Rules Marshal, said this on the first page:



Why is the legality of it still being discussed?

Because forums are for discussing things? Because sometimes people change their mind? Sometimes humans make mistakes? Anyway, most of the discussion is about the implications - what it means for an ice pillar, or any other piece of terrain, to be placed "on" a marker.

[Manicmac]

By no means am I rules marshal, guru or *shudder* lawyer. I was stating my opinion and how I would go about playing the situation, or how I would judge the situation and my reason/RM for doing so.
We are having a discussion, and until Nathan or Eric tell me I am totally head up my arse wrong, That is the way I am going to call it.
And yes, I can be, with more discussion, be swayed to see the errors of my ways.

Not going to change the way I do it, mind you, just see the error of my ways:D

[kasin666]

the pillars can be destroyed not to mention even rasputinas crew has to destroy them if they need to get the marker so i honestly dont see an issue since alit really does is slow the opponent down to her speed as for spirits go ahead end you move on the pillars next turn raspy will freeze you in place