ramos/alyce scrap token question

[Edweird]

If I have ramos salvage under fire up a scrap token, if unused can it be sacrificed by an inrange friendly rusty alyce to summon a steampunk abomination? If not I really dont see how alyse is supposed to find scrap to convert since she is not able to create it herself and doing the long division of burning 2(salvage)+1(summon arach)+1(kill arach)+1(summon SPA) to create one SPA is alot of treadmill for something so minor. Please say it isnt so!

[Wodschow]

Please say it isnt so!

I'm afraid I can't.

Unless specifically mentioned models can't use counters carried by other models. (Edit: Ref: page 18 of the manual)

Alyce isn't a Scavenger herself, but can only be taken by Scavenger masters, so whenever constructs die you gain Scrap Counters, this is Alyce's only access to those.


Edit:
She's not really meant as a way to give Ramos access to the Desolation Engine...

[Edweird]

Thats a shame... i was hoping for something along the lines of sacrificing is not "using or sharing"; or some other reasonable work around. For 10ss you think she could atleast bring a shovel to the fight, or beg/borrow/steal counters held by others friendly or not...

Oh well, best i can hope for is future reasonable errata to address this lack of utility

[Satyrwyld]

:twitch:

+2 control cards per turn, headshot, and bag o' tricks isn't enough utility for her?

[ratch]

i dont see the problem with dropping counters? im new but i dont remember reading where you can't do it.

[Dire Hoarcat Snuggler]

True enough, ratch, but the rules also don't say you can't de-pants your opponent. Otherwise, I'd love to imagine that you could voluntarily drop tokens. Just makes sense! But let's wait for a ruling on this...

[Wodschow]

True enough, ratch, but the rules also don't say you can't de-pants your opponent. Otherwise, I'd love to imagine that you could voluntarily drop tokens. Just makes sense! But let's wait for a ruling on this...

Page 18 of the Rules Manual - Counters - Last Paragraph:

"A model cannot voluntarily drop any carried Counters or pass them to another model unless a special rule allows it to do so. ..."

[pugwhan]

Although a Ramos crew will probably have a few constructs running around and when they die they will drop a scrap counter that Alyce can use.

[Edweird]

Once again the point of the question is lost in the discussion... Alyce needs a scavenger master to pal around with, but when it comes to needing scrap she can neither use her friends salvage or generate it herself... thus I think she is more of a "difficult child" than +2 soulstones can cure.

Also DireHoarcat and I have discussed this at length, I assure you we already discussed that the scrap cannot be dropped... I am sure he was just mentioning that it is an issue that could use review for future consideration.

My potential work around would of been less messy since RA's ability says to "sacrifice scrap within range" which in an alternative understanding could include carried scrap since it can be done at range... but its not and I am currently wrong, but there is always hope for update love

[Pink Horror]

True enough, ratch, but the rules also don't say you can't de-pants your opponent.

I always hate this argument. The rules of common decency cover de-pantsings and other stupid behavior. It's not because the rulebook doesn't mention them. If you need direct permission to perform a physical action, which rule says that you are allowed to touch your models?

[Wodschow]

Once again the point of the question is lost in the discussion... Alyce needs a scavenger master to pal around with, but when it comes to needing scrap she can neither use her friends salvage or generate it herself... thus I think she is more of a "difficult child" than +2 soulstones can cure.

If all you see when you read Alyce's statcard is her summon spell, then I think you're missing out on alot of what she's all about. The abominations really aren't the main thing about her - at all.

Also, I don't really think the point of the question was lost in the above discussion..?

Anyway.. Blast a few opponents constructs with her and you'll see she's very well able to generate counters herself, let her hang around when your spiders die and she's free to use the counters that drop - but again, the summoning she brings really isn't what's awesome about her.. I'm not sure why you consider it such a big deal.

[Edweird]

I made the thread only concerning her summoning ability from scrap, so yes her bag-o-tricks, headshot, and +2 draw is non-sequitor to the main topic.

lets say my particular tactic was to hang ramos and alyce in the back and play summoning pattycake while enjoying +2 draw... that tactic is obviously shot since the way she gets scrap is moving up and getting into the fight. So yes it eventually becomes relevant; but only after the original question of scrap sharing has been answered and put on the table for potential review, which is the logical conclusion.

[Adran]

I made the thread only concerning her summoning ability from scrap, so yes her bag-o-tricks, headshot, and +2 draw is non-sequitor to the main topic.

lets say my particular tactic was to hang ramos and alyce in the back and play summoning pattycake while enjoying +2 draw... that tactic is obviously shot since the way she gets scrap is moving up and getting into the fight. So yes it eventually becomes relevant; but only after the original question of scrap sharing has been answered and put on the table for potential review, which is the logical conclusion.

Disagree.
If you want the two of them hanging out at the back creating Steampunk abominations, then they can. You can average 1 Abomination a turn if you want them to do all the work.
Which is all you would be getting your way. Sure, it takes up an extra 0 action from Ramos and an extra 1 ap action from either one of them, but what were you planning on doing with them anyway? If you feel really strongly about it you can take a student of conflict to give them back that 1 AP so all you are missing now is Ramos' ability to pseudo companion.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for this to be changed, I don't think its not working as intended. Your tactic still works, you just need some use of cards to ensure it, and since you're getting those 2 extra cards a turn, its pretty safe.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Your asking something to change that will fit your strategy that isn't a rules question. Plus minions shouldn't be as good as masters as summoning factories. Check the resser and you will see what I mean.

[Edweird]

Oy vey, ive long accepted it dont work... so no need to pile on. I was only suggesting it is odd that you cant drop scrap or share it with models within ability range; but you can use it at range while it is not held. It just seems strange is all.

@adran several posts ago i said it is possible but very difficult to play summoning pattycake... difficult to the point that i would not waste the pile of actions that are better used

[LoboStele]

I'd bet that the rule is made that way so that one player could not use a Scrap Counter which an enemy is holding. From a fluff stand point, I'd have absolutely no problem with Ramos causing ANY nearby scrap to turn into a Spider, especially if an enemy was carrying it. THAT would scare the crap out of an enemy. :D

But from a rules stand point, that would suck pretty bad if your opponent could do it that way. I guess they could get around it by allowing 'friendly' models to share the Counters, but I'm guessing there are other extensions of that rule which would muddy things up as well. Easier to just do it the way they have, I guess, and compensate for the few occasions where it would be nice by making the pieces better in other ways.

[Hookers]

you can de-pants your opponent at any time :spank: