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Pink Horror
05-01-2011, 03:08 AM
In a game recently, this happened, and I want to see if/how much we screwed up.

1) Dreamer and a nearby Daydream activated around 6" away from Hamelin and his usual horde.
2) Dreamer drops in 3 Alps, Coppelius, 2 Insidious Madness all right next to Hamelin's crew, basically. The Alps have their -1 WP and the Madness's have the -flip on WP from before they were buried.
3) Dreamer makes them all Terrifying.
4) Dreamer becomes LCB.
5) Daydream moves to the side, and pulls LCB.
6) LCB uses this new angle to charge Nix through some rats.
7) With the charge and second attack from expert, along with a Flay trigger, LCB kills Nix (who becomes a rat).

Ok, with me so far? We weren't sure if LCB would go before or after the Daydream. The Hamelin player decided to let the Daydream go first, which made the charge possible, unfortunately for him.

Next, LCB wanted to use his book on the second attack to bring back the Dreamer, but then we got into a discussion - would the Dreamer act again, and if so, could he turn back into LCB with his 0, letting LCB use melee expert again? We didn't think either of them would have any general action points left, but we didn't know if the others would refill each time they swapped who was buried.

Anyway, things got more confusing when...

8) For Hamelin's turn, one of his stolen made LCB insignificant. He was within melee range of something, but didn't have to check terrifying because he's non-living, right?
9) Now Coppelius went, and unfortunately this is where the Dreamer started to notice he didn't really think this all through. Coppelius did his sleep thing, with a casting total of 18, and practically every figure on the board except the daydreams was within range of him and the wound ability of 3 Alps. All the rats die and turn into rats. The stolen also die and turn into rats. All the nightmares are also Slow, but do not take damage, right?
10) Someone has to take the paralyze check from the stolen, right? Did Coppelius kill them, or did the Alps kill them? Could an Alp that is already paralyzed take the second check too?
11) Hamelin uses his lure spell after taking 3 Wds from alps. Everyone is severely WP hobbled by the dead stolen and the madness (which does not stack with the other madness, right?). Luckily for the alps, the first one to walk up to Hamelin takes weak damage, blocking the others from getting into base contact. A question comes up that remains hypothetical: do the damage flips happen on at a time, or do they happen after everyone moves?

12) A daydream moves over to an objective counter, to pull a nightmare closer to it. Now we make a terrible realization: a group of rats are within 4 inches of Coppelius, terrifying range of a nightmare, and smother range of at least 2 Alps. If one activates, the whole pack would activate, though they would all almost certainly die, with -3 WP and -1 flip on WP, and two WP effects that could kill them. Of course, when they die, they would become rats, who would then get another chance to act. Also, summoned models receive slow, so are they killed by the alps too? One thing we didn't realize, looking back on it, is the base contact aspect - they could slowly try to move out of range as they die over and over. Still, something is wrong with this situation. We decided to let all the rats act at the end of the turn after the dreamer finished moving everyone, because they would pass eventually.
Do models that die from Night Stalker move first? That could also break the cycle, but we didn't think about that possibility either. I guess that could have gotten all of the rats out of reincarnation range and killed them off really fast, making this devastating for Hamelin.

13) The rat-catcher died to night stalker.
14) Coppelius later paralyzed Hamelin and flew off to destroy some evidence nearby. That trigger seems pretty nasty on a Master. Well, Hamelin had really bad luck with his hand and soulstones in this situation - I think he ended up with 7+4 after cheating and using a soulstone.
15) The dreamer went off to destroy evidence after satisfying Kidnap and Kill Protege, and Hamelin decided to concede once the Dreamer had maximum VPs, even though there's a good chance he could have tied it up, because after killing the alps and with the extra rats from the summoned and killed stolen, he could have brought rat-catchers and still have a deadly swarm.

Well, I have to say, the rules for these events were very confusing, and I'm not confident that we did everything correctly. That's why I'm posting this in the rules section instead of the report section. This didn't seem like a good combination of masters to create a pleasant, quickly-flowing game experience. The auras and aura-like effects really piled up.

magicpockets
05-01-2011, 04:55 AM
Wow. :D

Okay, to try and help where i can (using the same numbers as yours) -

8) Hamelin is soulless so ignores morale duels (but not WP duels) so yes, doesn't take a terrifying check

9) Feed on dreams says "enemy models" so the nightmares wouldn't take damage

10) The alps did the wounds and therefore killed the stolen, so it's the alps

11) It would be simultaneous, but you still need to be able to get into b2b contact so how you did it would be right. You couldn't kill one then move another and kill it etc to get around the lack of b2b space

12) They start with slow and feed on dreams says "suffering slow whilst within 3 inches" - so they don't take damage. Also I'd say with nightstalker you take wounds (and die) before you move.

13) really? was he healing wounds from the rats dying around him? Fair play if he was, just a little surprising.

The rest I'm not best placed to answer I'm afraid ;)

Wodschow
05-01-2011, 05:15 AM
4.5)
LORD CHOMPY BITS activates immediately when he is brought into play so would go before the Daydream.

7a)
A more general rule here would be that you have to decide upon all the models activating simultaneously with Companion before activating any of them - thus even if LCB didn't go immediately as explained above, he couldn't be part of the same activation chain as the Dreamer.

7b)
The Dreamer and LCB can still only activate once a turn if they don't have reactivate (which they dont). So you can't keep switching them and continue to gain (+1)Melee Expert actions.

12)
Yes, Alp Bombs vs. Ratswarms makes for the longest and most boring Malifaux games.. ...

cain
05-01-2011, 07:55 AM
10) The alps did the wounds and therefore killed the stolen, so it's the alps

So do you choose one alp to be the killer or all?



12)
Yes, Alp Bombs vs. Ratswarms makes for the longest and most boring Malifaux games.. ...

So is it correct that in this situation
- the rats either die by feed on dreams as long they dont have crazy luck for --wp flips
- or if they have luck they die by exhaustion trying to bite the alps?
So as long you dont put the respawning rats slowly out of the alps range you would have to repeat all this for hours until both players falls asleep?

Pink Horror
05-01-2011, 11:41 AM
Wow. :D

12) They start with slow and feed on dreams says "suffering slow whilst within 3 inches" - so they don't take damage. Also I'd say with nightstalker you take wounds (and die) before you move.


Is your comment in reference to the summon effect? The rules for summoning do not say they "start with slow", it says that summoned models receive Slow. And of course, Feed On Dreams says it still triggers, even if they already have Slow. Anyway, we didn't even play that out - we were going by Smother triggering Feed On Dreams.

We totally forgot about the catcher being Vermin that would heal from the dead rats. Good catch.

Edit: felt like adding more

I sort of knew what we were getting into, experimenting with two of the forces with the most rules questions online against each other, but I didn't really know the scale of it until we got down to actually trying to play through it. Luckily, the dreamer and hamelin are both my figures. This probably won't come up when everyone uses his own guys.

magicpockets
05-01-2011, 12:05 PM
Is your comment in reference to the summon effect? The rules for summoning do not say they "start with slow", it says that summoned models receive Slow. And of course, Feed On Dreams says it still triggers, even if they already have Slow. Anyway, we didn't even play that out - we were going by Smother triggering Feed On Dreams.

Ooooh, never thought of it that way as the rats start with slow on their card. May need a RM for this one to explain the intention.

Pink Horror
05-01-2011, 12:25 PM
Something else: rats have 2 wounds and that ability to teleport, which costs 1 Wd. If a rat hops over to an Alp, is it allowed to strike, or does exhaustion prevent it from trying? If it is allowed to try, does exhaustion kill it before or after the strike actually happens?

Masque
05-01-2011, 08:01 PM
8) For Hamelin's turn, one of his stolen made LCB insignificant. He was within melee range of something, but didn't have to check terrifying because he's non-living, right?


8) Hamelin is soulless so ignores morale duels (but not WP duels) so yes, doesn't take a terrifying check

Only Living models take Morale Duels from Terrifying and Soulless does make you non-Living but Soulless models could still take Morale Duels from sources other than Terrifying.

Sandwich
05-01-2011, 08:38 PM
Is your comment in reference to the summon effect? The rules for summoning do not say they "start with slow", it says that summoned models receive Slow. And of course, Feed On Dreams says it still triggers, even if they already have Slow. Anyway, we didn't even play that out - we were going by Smother triggering Feed On Dreams.

Well, I can see that argument for any other summoned model in the game except Rats, because the Rats have (-1)Slow on their Card, and since slow doesn't stack, they do not receive slow when summoned, so they wouldn't get hurt from that specific situation.

Pink Horror
05-02-2011, 12:22 AM
Well, I can see that argument for any other summoned model in the game except Rats, because the Rats have (-1)Slow on their Card, and since slow doesn't stack, they do not receive slow when summoned, so they wouldn't get hurt from that specific situation.


Feed on Dreams: Enemy models receiving Slow while within 3" of this model suffer one Wd, even if they are already Slow.

Clearly, it's possible to receive Slow when a model is already Slow. What is special about being summoned that means they would not receive Slow in that particular case, when no one is arguing about whether Smother or Sleep, My Friends would trigger Feed on Dreams?

magicpockets
05-02-2011, 04:54 AM
Clearly, it's possible to receive Slow when a model is already Slow.

Agreed in this instance, and until a RM shows up my gut is it would do damage as the rat is summoned. Also re an earlier question, exhaustion would kill a 1 wound rat before it flipped for the strike.

Sandwich
05-02-2011, 01:31 PM
Clearly, it's possible to receive Slow when a model is already Slow. What is special about being summoned that means they would not receive Slow in that particular case, when no one is arguing about whether Smother or Sleep, My Friends would trigger Feed on Dreams?

Well, Slow doesn't stack, so normally the model wouldn't be slow twice, nor would it receive slow twice.
Though you're correct, because Feed on Dreams says that the model receives slow even if it is slow.

roboshmoo
05-10-2011, 05:43 PM
Slow does not stack, but you can recieve it as many times as it is put on you, it would just replace the earlier incarnation of it instead of addind to it.