Maintain Machines and "gained" talents...

[FearLord]

I've read in some of these rules answers that when a model gains an ability it becomes "printed" on the card for the purposes of the game - does this mean that 'Maintain Machines' would allow a friendly construct to ignore Slow or Paralyzed if it has gained them?

- I assume no, since Maintain Machines seems to apply to Abilities only, not actions (or other types of Talent...)

[tadaka]

Slow, fast, melee master all those sorts of things are listed as actions not Abilities so they would not be able to ignore them.

I can see nothing in the rules that would make Paralised fall in to "Abilities" thus could not be ignored.

[Masque]

According to page 12 of the Rules Manual things like Fast and Melee Master are Abilities even though they are listed under Actions for ease of reference. According to page 34 Fast, Slow, Reactivate, and Paralyzed are all said to be a sub group of Abilities called Action Modifiers. Since Paralyzed and Slow are Abilities I see no reason why Hoffman can't Maintain them away unless "listed abilities" don't include those gained through effects. He could remove Slow from a friendly Mannequin regardless.

[tadaka]

Intresting cant argue the RAW on that one. Cant imagine why they would give him the ability to make a model slow and ignore the slow however. RAI may be a bit different but that looks correct they should be able to ignore them per the rules manaual.

[Pink Horror]

Cant imagine why they would give him the ability to make a model slow and ignore the slow however. RAI may be a bit different but that looks correct they should be able to ignore them per the rules manaual.

You've read the rest of the rules, right? They've done this sort of thing over and over again. It's best not to think about it.

[infernosolarc]

As is, you can just give slow to a machine that has already gone and suffer basically nothing from it.

[Hookers]

As is, you can just give slow to a machine that has already gone and suffer basically nothing from it.

only if its turn 6 and you are clairvoyant that another turn is not coming.

slow would carry over to the next activation

[infernosolarc]

I don't think that is the case. I thought that the power just said Gains Slow. Not gain's slow until next activation or anything. And the default duration of status effects is until the Resolve Effects (or whatever) step right after the Start Closing Phase.

I don't have the steampunk Iron Man just yet though, so his card may be different, or I may just be misremembering.

[tadaka]

The rules for slow in the book give the detail your missing on this. Model with slow gets -1 general action point on its current or next activation. Or next activation gives it a set duration so would last between rounds.

[infernosolarc]

So it does! I assumed that was just for people that came with slow or gained it during a turn. I assumed that the general rules for duration still applied.

I guess I am mistaken. That makes slow powers a good deal better.

[FearLord]

Intresting cant argue the RAW on that one. Cant imagine why they would give him the ability to make a model slow and ignore the slow however. RAI may be a bit different but that looks correct they should be able to ignore them per the rules manaual.

Interesting - so the random thought I had in my game last night might actually be right? Can we get a clarification on this, because I don't want to cheat anyone, but equally I'd have had a better second turn without Hoffman and the Peacekeeper getting paralyzed at the same time...

Of course, you'd need a Mechanical Assistant to use Maintain Machines on Hoffman himself, but an extra reason to take that isn't a bad thing...

[Pink Horror]

Interesting - so the random thought I had in my game last night might actually be right? Can we get a clarification on this, because I don't want to cheat anyone, but equally I'd have had a better second turn without Hoffman and the Peacekeeper getting paralyzed at the same time...

Of course, you'd need a Mechanical Assistant to use Maintain Machines on Hoffman himself, but an extra reason to take that isn't a bad thing...

Regardless of what some rules marshal may have decided, I think there could be reason for some rogue gaming group to rule that when Hoffman hands slow to a construct, it is not "listed" so it cannot be ignored. Honestly, saying that these temporary abilities are "literally printed on the card" is such an absurd statement, it's hard to take a ruling like that seriously. But I guess it's official, right?

[Justin]

Regardless of what some rules marshal may have decided, I think there could be reason for some rogue gaming group to rule that when Hoffman hands slow to a construct, it is not "listed" so it cannot be ignored. Honestly, saying that these temporary abilities are "literally printed on the card" is such an absurd statement, it's hard to take a ruling like that seriously. But I guess it's official, right?

It's based on a very literal interpretation of the rules manual which, while technically correct, probably was not the intent.

My guess is that in stating that the ability counts as being "written on the card" that they were just trying to clarify the manner in which the ability affected the model, NOT trying to subtly make it so Hoffman could ignore slow. I mean, if that were the intent, there are MUCH more clear ways of writing it. Like, say, "Constructs within range ignore slow, etc." As opposed to leaving it up to what amounts to an Easter Egg.

Also keep in mind: Hoffman existed before the rules manual. So at the time he was designed and playtested, this was never accounted for. So, unless they decided all of a sudden his crew really needed to ignore slow...this was never the design intent. And more than likely was simply a minor oversight, which is to be expected when you have a handful of people trying to rework the rules for a game with, what? ~160 models? Something will slip by, my guess this is one of those things.

BUT, I have tried to interpret for the marshals before...and been totally wrong. So maybe this was the intent. *shrug*

[FearLord]

Also keep in mind: Hoffman existed before the rules manual. So at the time he was designed and playtested, this was never accounted for. So, unless they decided all of a sudden his crew really needed to ignore slow...this was never the design intent. And more than likely was simply a minor oversight, which is to be expected when you have a handful of people trying to rework the rules for a game with, what? ~160 models? Something will slip by, my guess this is one of those things.

BUT, I have tried to interpret for the marshals before...and been totally wrong. So maybe this was the intent. *shrug*

The range is only 6", so if you were to tap the power of a construct during Hoffman's activation, the construct would only be able to ignore the slow if it was still within 6" when it activated... so it would just be another reason to keep them all bunched up (which is probably Hoffman's greatest strength and greatest weakness)...

I could totally see how this could just be another construct perk for Hoffman, but equally I could see it as an unforeseen consequence, which is why I'd like to see something official on this before I start pulling those kind of shenanigans...

[Justin]

Fair enough. :)

[magicpockets]

Just my 2p worth, but I think when it's printed on the card it's an ability/talent which gives the EFFECT of the same name. So imo you can ignore the talent printed on the card (and therefore won't get the effect), but you can't ignore slow, paralysed, fast, reactivate itself if gained in another way.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Yep because under that understanding he could assimilate reactivate from the model nw just gave it too.

[tadaka]

Just my 2p worth, but I think when it's printed on the card it's an ability/talent which gives the EFFECT of the same name. So imo you can ignore the talent printed on the card (and therefore won't get the effect), but you can't ignore slow, paralysed, fast, reactivate itself if gained in another way.



At the start of the activation phase, the Riders phase would be checked and the talents under that phase copied onto the card. So if the Mechanical Rider was on the Full Power Stage 2 new talents would go on the card (+1)Melee Expert and Cb(:tomes)Brutal[Saber], which would last to the end of the turn. These would act like any other talents on a model so Hoffman would be able to assimilate one of them.

Rules martial ruled he can copy such effects i thought the same thing but was told it worked like this however he does not give reactivate he activates a model even if it all ready has activated subtle but it is not the same. Far as i can see this would be an effect not a "talent"

[tadaka]

I think you could have rusty alice give a watcher or some other lower cost unit reactivate it with out the down side. He would just copy reactivate. Think this would work but i would have to. Dig in to the rule book

[magicpockets]

Rules martial ruled he can copy such effects i thought the same thing but was told it worked like this however he does not give reactivate he activates a model even if it all ready has activated subtle but it is not the same. Far as i can see this would be an effect not a "talent"

I'm not sure which thread that is so may be misinterpreting you but...

In that instance youre copying furter talents given to the rider by his talent, not game effects such as slow or reactivate. Not saying I'm 100% sure on this, but just considering a different line of thinking. :)

[FearLord]

I'm not sure which thread that is so may be misinterpreting you but...


You can click the little arrow in the quote to view the thread that the quote came from.

[tadaka]

I'm not sure which thread that is so may be misinterpreting you but...

In that instance youre copying furter talents given to the rider by his talent, not game effects such as slow or reactivate. Not saying I'm 100% sure on this, but just considering a different line of thinking. :)


Thats the whole issue for the original thread. I asked when is a talent all ways a talent. So if I give a model some thing like melee master. As it was pointed out to me on page one. Things like slow, fast, reactivate are abilities per the book. Per the ruleing they are valid targets for copy.

"According to page 12 of the Rules Manual things like Fast and Melee Master are Abilities even though they are listed under Actions for ease of reference. According to page 34 Fast, Slow, Reactivate, and Paralyzed are all said to be a sub group of Abilities called Action Modifiers."

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

So then could you gain action modifiers, since they are still under abilities?

[poulpox]

That's the whole question.
I feel that the RAI is about the original abilities, but again maybe not. However that would seem rather powerful to be able to remove paralyzed from a bunch of models just like that.

[tadaka]

So then could you gain action modifiers, since they are still under abilities?


RAI is very much questionable but per the ruleing and the manual it would seam that way. But rules martial has said you could copy melee expert from a ss miner so. I would point out however hoffman does not give a model reactivate.

[Keltheos]

Ruling
Action Modifiers are Abilities, but they can be permanent or temporary.

"Listed" refers to the model's permanent Abilities. If Slow was a permanent Ability (part of the model's original stats, or added during an Encounter for the duration of the Encounter) it could be ignored with Maintain Machines. Temporary Abilities (such as gaining Fast/Slow/Paralyzed from a Trigger) cannot be ignored by Maintain Machines.

So when Hoffman Taps Power that Slow he assigns cannot be ignored as it's temporary. Likewise, if someone Paralyzed a Construct with a Spell it would not ignore the Paralyzed effect.

[FearLord]

Thanks! I knew that seemed too good to be true...

[tadaka]

So are we able to copy fast, reactivate, para (not sure why you would want to) that are temp effects Kel?

[Keltheos]

You mean with the Doppleganger?

[tadaka]

Hoffman. Rat said we can copy melee master gained in such a way. I was wondering if your ruleing would change the past rule and if it would extend to say reactivate being as they are all listed as actions.

[Pink Horror]

Hooray! The "literally printed on the card" nonsense is finally over, and "listed" has meaning again.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Sounds like a updated ruling overriding a bit of misunderstanding with Ratty's ruling. This seems much more clear and RAI. I was worried to think I could face Hoffman and see him give reactivate once, then gain reactivate, and give another model reactivate. Essential giving 3 models reactivate. Just need to release a model for the guild that has reactivate built :vb_devil:

[poulpox]

You mean with the Doppleganger?

Tadaka means with Assimilate (don't you?); Assimilate doesn't state "listed", and Ratty had therefore ruled that when a model is under the effect of something, it becomes written on the card, hence copyable. Since Assimilate refers only to Talent or Spell "possessed by a target", not mentioning 'listed', does 'possessed' refer to 'Permanent', just as 'listed' in Maintain Machine, or does is refer also to 'Temporary' talents?