When exactly does Slow fall off?

[Chipacabra]

This was a weird one that came up in the last game. A Freikorps had picked up slow before his activation, so he only gets 1 AP on his turn. He shoots at Collette, who activates her blinding flash to give the Freikorps slow (and blip to safety).

Here's the timing question: Is the Freikorps considered to have Slow at the end of his activation? It all depends on when Slow actually falls off. If it persists for the entire activation, then he is already Slow when given Slow, and you can't have Slow twice.

On the other hand, if Slow falls off the moment it takes an AP away, then he's got room to pick up Slow again for next turn.

There are a few other obscure hypothetical situations where the answer to this matters, but this is one is pretty straightforward and common. What exactly is the timing on when you lose the trait Slow (or Fast by the same logic, I guess.

[Ratty]

Slow says


this model forfeits 1 general AP during its current or next activation, whichever comes first.

Blinding Flash happens during your activation so the slow would effect your model during its current activation.

[Wodschow]

*Unless the attacking model spend its last remaining AP to make the Strike during that activation, then Slow would carry on to the next - you can't circumvent it that easily.. :)

[FearLord]

I don't think either of these responses addressed the actual question which is "If a model is already slow when it activates, does it lose slow at the beginning or end of its activation (i.e - can it be effected by slow again during that same activation)?"

My personal view would be that the model's activation has been effected by slow (losing one general AP for that activation) and therefore it is still slow for the whole of that activation, but it isn't entirely clear that you could not pick up a new case of slow that would effect your next activation...

[Ratty]

http://nezumi.me.uk/Malifaux/NewWebsite/M_Clarification.jpg
Slow would end at the end of the Activation. When you gain a trait it for all purposes act like you had Slow printed on your card during that activation. If you gain it again it wouldn't stack. You have already forfeited a general AP, so you wouldn't have to forfeit a second one.

If you used an ability like Reckless during your activation it would give the model fast. This would cancel out the slow, removing the term from your card and you would allow you to use your full general AP. As the slow is no longer on the card you could gain it again during the activation.

It has been ruled in the past (http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=147655&postcount=6). If you have spent all your General AP for the round, that the slow would be applied next turn. The model has no general AP to forfeit.

[Chipacabra]

Thanks, the clarification that Slow technically is removed at the end of activation is what I was looking for. That's about what we thought, but we wanted to be sure.

[Justin]

If you used an ability like Reckless during your activation it would give the model fast. This would cancel out the slow, removing the term from your card and you would allow you to use your full general AP. As the slow is no longer on the card you could gain it again during the activation.

In the case of Reckless, slow is no longer on your card so you may gain it again. (Yay! I repeated exactly what you said) But, applying that same logic to Fast, fast is no longer on your card either, so you could gain it again as well. So, if my gremlin starts out Slow could I use Reckless once, suffer a wound to gain fast (which it immediately loses, but the slow is canceled) then suffer another wound to gain Fast?

Essentially, if a gremlin starts out slow, can he Reckless twice?

Reckless isn't an effect, it's an ability, so no stacking worries. Fast is the effect, and the first one is canceled.

Hmm...

Not even unbalanced, because you suffer two wounds. But I never thought of it before.

[Headcase2]

Action modifiers can only be used once, so no double Reckless. Same with McMourning's fast, or Levi's extra walk.

[Justin]

Action modifiers can only be used once, so no double Reckless. Same with McMourning's fast, or Levi's extra walk.

But the model never gets the modifier the first time.

McMourning would actually be able to do this too. (assuming he started out slow)

Levi wouldn't as there isn't another effect that specifically cancels out a double walk, so the effect stays on him and may not stack.


I mean, if a model may receive slow twice, why would fast work differently?

[Slade]

It's not that you don't get the Fast ability, it just doesn't do anything other than cancel out the Slow you had before. If you could get Fast from another source, you'd then be Fast (Because the Slow would have been canceled out by Reckless).

[Justin]

It's not that you don't get the Fast ability, it just doesn't do anything other than cancel out the Slow you had before. If you could get Fast from another source, you'd then be Fast (Because the Slow would have been canceled out by Reckless).

Why does it have to be another source?

Look at the example on page 34 about Lilith and Mortimer.

1)Mortimer makes Lilith slow once, it cancels her Fast.
2)Mortimer makes Lilith Slow again, she gains slow.

No reason you can't apply the same reasoning to Reckless.

1)You take one wound from Reckless, you lose Slow.
2)You take another wound from Reckless, you gain Fast.


Normally you can't use Reckless twice because two instances of Fast (no matter the sources) do not stack. But if the first one is canceled, I see no reason in the rules it wouldn't work.

Maybe Reckless should state once per turn?

Or maybe this is a valid tactic?

[Slade]

Good point. I was going under the assumption you could only use an ability like that once, but I don't see anything that says that, so my mistake. I guess you could kill Leveticus with Wk actions then? :club:

[Hookers]

Good point. I was going under the assumption you could only use an ability like that once, but I don't see anything that says that, so my mistake. I guess you could kill Leveticus with Wk actions then? :club:
Not so sure about that.


The walk action you are giving him can't be canceled. The reason Lalo's logic works is because the first time they get fast it cancels slow, so it is as if the model never had either. Since it's not fast there is nothing stopping it from gaining fast.

However, taking a walk action is something that either happens or doesn't, and the ability only lets you take the action once I'm pretty sure.

[Slade]

It doesn't say it in the ability, unless I'm missing somewhere else that it says once/activation. And there isn't anything restricting the number of Wk actions you can take, right?

[Justin]

It doesn't say it in the ability, unless I'm missing somewhere else that it says once/activation. And there isn't anything restricting the number of Wk actions you can take, right?

Yeah, technically you're right.

But I think I've seen it ruled before (don't ask for a link, it was a long time ago, and I could be wrong) that it doesn't work that way.

Either way, I see it as one of those rather clear RAI situations: yeah, Levy can walk himself to death if you read it literally. But I don't think he was meant to do that. The way I see it, that ability should grant Levy the ability: Nimble (+1), Levy was just written before the Nimble ability existed.

With the gremlins and Reckless, it's very situational, and also comes with a distinct cost...so I'm wondering if that is the intent.

[Hookers]

I guess you are right. The other abilities that grant specific AP to walk (Nimble, Wade in and out, etc.) specifically limit it to once per activation, while Levi's does not. With the amount of time that has been spent revising Leveticus I would like to think that this had to have been intentional and was not simply overlooked, but ya never know. It does kind of take the cool little "how is he gonna kill himself this time?" mini-game out of it...




btw :tj: :lol: :hijacked:

[Slade]

Yeah, it would take out the Leviticus death betting pool. I guess an argument could be made for the "Can only be activated once" camp in that the abilities are (+1), they can only be used once per source, but that's stretching it at best, and just not right at worst.

At least the original question got answered *before* the thread got jacked!

[Ropetus]

The number associated with each Action Modifier is the maximum amount of uses for that modifier per activation. For Reckless it's (+1) which means at most one use, for Leveticus's walking it's (+1) which means at most one use, for Melee Master it's (+2) which means at most two uses. Very simple really.

No need to make it more complicated than it actually is.

-Ropetus