Question about triggers and armor...

[Necromorph]

I remember reading the changes to the spirit rule, that triggers (like crit strike, brutal, etc) are applied after the 1/2 damage from spirits is applied. Ex. Death Marshal shoots for weak damage of 2, which is cut in half to 1, then the crit trigger built in is applied for another 1 dealing a total of 2wd.

Does the same rule apply for armor? I assume it would, but I didn't know if that was something specific to spirits, but if triggers are applied after passive effects, then it is safe to assume that this would be the case. If so, does armor (or the damage reduction for spirits) apply to the triggered damage?
Two examples, and we'll say the target has armor +2.
-Ryle shoots for severe of 4dg, which is reduced to 2wd by armor. His extra flip for dealing severe deals moderate lets say, another 2dg, which is also reduced to 1wd for a total of 3wd. Correct?
-Rami shoots for severe of 4dg triggering Dumb and Lucky. His initial 4dg is reduced to 2wd, and Dumb and Lucky deals an extra 4dg, which is reduced to 2wd by armor for a total of 4wd. ??

Is this right or am I misreading something? I'm just making sure I have things straight for when I play crews like Hoffman with my shooty crews.

[Fetid Strumpet]

EDIT: My understanding of the rules was in Error as Tadaka pointed out below. Please refer to Keltheos' ruling on this issue.

The reason Spirits halve their damage first and then apply modifiers is because you follow the mathematical order of operations. So in any sequence of numbers you must multiply or divide first, followed by any addition or subtraction.

So if a Death Marshall shoots Datsue-Ba for 2 Damage +1 for Critical Strike you'd get a mathematical equation which looked like:

2 / 2 + 1 = 2

In your Ryle example:

Ryle shoots a model with Armor +2 for Severe Dmg.
4(severe dmg) - 2(Armor) = 2

Now Ryle utilizes his Gatling Gun's trait which deals a second source of dmg to the target.

So 2(Moderate) - 2(Armor) = 0 dmg EXCEPT that armor cannot reduce dmg inflicted below 1. So another wound is inflicted on the target for a net total of 3 wounds.

In your Rami example where Dumb Luck triggers:

4dmg * 2(the trigger's ability) - 2(Armor) = a final dmg total of 6

His severe dmg of 4 is multiplied by 2 (it doesn't create a second source of 4 dmg it doubles the dmg of the only source). Then the Armor's effect kicks in. Armor performs the function of subtraction in this equation so we apply it after the doubling of the dmg. So Rami's dmg of 8 is modified by removing 2 points. Thus the unlucky recipient has to deal with 6 dmg.


And just for fun lets assume Ryle shoots at and hits Datsue-Ba who has a linked Grave Spirit for Severe Dmg and gets the trigger for Fully Automatic. We'll assume he gets Severe dmg on all his flips.

Source 1: Ryle's Severe Dmg Strike
4 Dmg (Severe Dmg) / 2(Spirit) -2(Armor) = 1 Dmg (Armor cannot reduce dmg below 1)
Datsue-Ba's Total Dmg: 1

Source 2: Ryles Gattling Gun Trait
4(Severe dmg) / 2(Spirit) -2(Armor) = 1 Dmg (Armor Cannot reduce dmg below 1)
Datsue-Ba's Total Dmg: 2

Source 3: Ryle's Trigger for Fully Automatic
4(Severe dmg) / 2(Spirit) -2(Armor) = 1 Dmg (Armor Cannot reduce dmg below 1)
Datsue-Ba's Total Dmg: 3

Total potential Dmg Caused by Ryle: 12 Wounds
Total Dmg Suffered by Datsue-Ba: 3 Wounds

Did that make things any more clear?

[tadaka]

Thats not right. From the last time this came up. Putting this out there before any one gets confused.


Bud nipping in progress...

Spirits suffer half of the TOTAL damage suffered.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Ahhh I stand corrected, thank you. Was I correct in my thought process however in my Ryle, Datsue-Ba, & Grave Spirit example? Each Source would be considered separately or would you tabulate them all into one and them /2 and -2?

[Ratty]

Er.. I think your smoking some mighty fine herbs there, you almost destroyed my fragile little mind with your Bad Trip induced ramblings.

You add up all the additions from Critical Strike, Extra Damage Flips (unless they say after causing damage in which case they would be a separate damage event), Brutal etc to get the initial damage total.

Then you take spirit, armor, magical resistances off. It's at this stage you use mathmatical operator order. Spirit would half, then armour would come off.

[tadaka]

You total the damage and then apply it. For example. On page 45 when it says what happens when you flip the red joker for damage it says you total it and that is the damage that is inflicted.

So its total - armor= x and then turn in to wounds. Model suffers X.

[tadaka]

O no me and the rat agree the day is getting better :P

[Fetid Strumpet]

Ahhh ok I stand corrected. Please disregard the "ramblings" above.

[Ratty]

O no me and the rat agree the day is getting better :P

on the rules or the fact they have been smoking herbs?

[Necromorph]

Gotcha...so crit doesn't help at all. Back to square one with my diabolical plans to destroy Hoffman, lol.

[Ratty]

Gotcha...so crit doesn't help at all. Back to square one with my diabolical plans to destroy Hoffman, lol.

well they increase the initial damage so your more likely to get through armour.. but why not just use something that ignores armour like Hans special bullets.

[Necromorph]

Well yeah, I could run a list with Hans, Johan (neither of which I currently own), Taelor and Von Schill, but that is about the only way mercs can deal with all that armor (when it's stacking to 4+ like it usually does in Hoff crews). Ophelia can just cast Bent Gun Barrel and blast the Guardian, and then have all of her Young'uns do it as well if all else fails, but then the rest of your Kin are sitting there with their thumbs up their butts plinking away for 1dg a shot until she can pull that off.

Hamelin is fine, since blight counters do wd and not dg, and Levi/Alyce are armor eaters so it's no big on the Masters' front.

[Ratty]

don't forget the specialist.

[Necromorph]

I have my book in front of me, and was like.."What is he talking about, the Specialist doesn't ignore....WTFOMG!!!!"

Shows how much I go up against construct heavy crews on a regular basis lol...now I'm scrambling to find armor ignoring models and they're sitting right under my nose. I think I'm the only Levi player and noone plays Ramos, so I've usually been the one all armored up...I face lots of Hard to Wound, not much armor haha.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Lol, Necromorph I think the outcasts have more ways to deal with armor than most, so you got that going for ya.

My Neverborn for the most part just have to hit armored models and spirits Really Hard.

"Wait, what do you mean Ryle ignores all Wp duals. Can I cast a spell on any of your models?" Hoffman; Pandora's worst nightmare.

[Necromorph]

Yeah we do, lol. I just don't want to be forced to run the same list (or buy models I'll hardly use otherwise) every time I play a certain master with my Henchmen, just tryin' to figure out my options and keep them open hehe....constantly scheming and plotting is all.

[FearLord]

You total the damage and then apply it. For example. On page 45 when it says what happens when you flip the red joker for damage it says you total it and that is the damage that is inflicted.

So its total - armor= x and then turn in to wounds. Model suffers X.

That only applies to the Red Joker though - other damage flips from Ryle are separate damage events (because they occur after inflicting damage) so Spirit and Armor is applied to them separately - as per this thread http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20344&page=2