Totems and Discard soul stones

[CannonFodder]

Can a totems cast spells that require it to discard a soul stone?

Specific example: Mechanical doves using disappearing act from Colette.

I'd like to see a rules wrangler respond to this. I saw it discussed in deep another thread but should be in a simple to find place.

[nilus]

I'd say no, since they do not have use soul stone. But if you want a Rule MARSCHAL to answer(There are no rules Wranglers, just a Henchman Wrangler) you might want to offer up some virtual cookies to them.

[Hookers]

nilus is correct. Magical extension allows them to use a soulstone to improve the starting total of the duel for that spell only. It does not grant them Use Soulstone, and therefore they cannot discard a soulstone for any other reason than explicitly stated in the ability (add to the spell).

[Ratty]

I'd say no, since they do not have use soul stone. But if you want a Rule MARSCHAL to answer(There are no rules Wranglers, just a Henchman Wrangler) you might want to offer up some virtual cookies to them.

I also accept cheese.

Take it that they can't use spells that have a soulstone cost.


(1) Magical Extension
(CC: */Rst: * /Rg: *) This spell may be cast only once per activation. Cast one of the connected Master’s (1) spells. During this casting, this model may use a Soulstone to change its starting total.

This is the only thing in Magical Extension that allows you to use a soulstone, and that is only to add to the duels casting total.

[CannonFodder]

I see the argument, but the rules fro use soulstone (P14) sais

"But on occasion models without the ability can or the player discards the soulstone."

Given totems are supposed to cast spell from their master, I feel it falls in the 'on occasion' area. I realize the rules wrangler is probably going to say the same thing, but it would be nice to have official clear rulings, or an updated faq.

[Ratty]

I see the argument, but the rules fro use soulstone (P14) sais

"But on occasion models without the ability can or the player discards the soulstone."

Given totems are supposed to cast spell from their master, I feel it falls in the 'on occasion' area. I realize the rules wrangler is probably going to say the same thing, but it would be nice to have official clear rulings, or an updated faq.

There is only one situation I can think of where this is the case. which is Jack Daw's Undying. I would in general take it that if it says on the model card it can do something with soulstones the model can, if it's getting the ability from another card I would say not.

[magicpockets]

I realize the rules wrangler is probably going to say the same thing, but it would be nice to have official clear rulings, or an updated faq.

Just in case you missed it, Ratty is a Marshall now - so there's your "official clear ruling" ;)

[CannonFodder]

Thanks

[Masque]

There is only one situation I can think of where this is the case. which is Jack Daw's Undying. I would in general take it that if it says on the model card it can do something with soulstones the model can, if it's getting the ability from another card I would say not.

So if a Doppelganger Mimiced Undying, Magical Extension, or Dissappearing Act it would not be able to discard a soulstone?

[Dark Alleycat]

No but it could mimic the use soulstone from a master and then be able to use soulstones.

[Ratty]

"But on occasion models without the ability can or the player discards the soulstone."The first part refers to a few abilities on models that allow you to use soulstones without Use Soulstone like the Mechanical Doves or the Soulstone miners "Limited Soulstone Use".

The second part refers to the choice to reflip initiative and abilities like Undying that say the player who hired it discards the Soulstone not the model.

Other than abilities that say you can use soulstones specifically or abilities that say the player specifically discards the soulstone you can't use soulstones. If you copied Undying you would be able to, but you would have to be a moron to copy Undying, as you would still take Wds on your model, so he could die that way, and he would also be killed if you didn't discard a card or soulstone each time he was hit.

OK there are only a few abilities on models

[Chipacabra]

Honestly, I don't see anything about Use Soulstone that says it's an absolute requirement to use soulstone. Having the Use Soulstone gives you access to all the soulstone powers, but I can't find anything in the rules that says that's the ONLY way a model can spend/discard soulstone. And pg 14 says that it's NOT the only way. I think if the intention is that pigeons can't cast disappearing act, there needs to be some errata.

[LoboStele]

Honestly, I don't see anything about Use Soulstone that says it's an absolute requirement to use soulstone. Having the Use Soulstone gives you access to all the soulstone powers, but I can't find anything in the rules that says that's the ONLY way a model can spend/discard soulstone. And pg 14 says that it's NOT the only way. I think if the intention is that pigeons can't cast disappearing act, there needs to be some errata.

Umm...it's because the intention is that the Doves CANNOT cast Disappearing Act. They are already plenty powerful enough as it is.

Beyond that, Ratty is a Rules Marshall, and his word is like law around here. ;)

[Keltheos]

Honestly, I don't see anything about Use Soulstone that says it's an absolute requirement to use soulstone. Having the Use Soulstone gives you access to all the soulstone powers, but I can't find anything in the rules that says that's the ONLY way a model can spend/discard soulstone. And pg 14 says that it's NOT the only way. I think if the intention is that pigeons can't cast disappearing act, there needs to be some errata.

Here's the easy way to look at it. When is a model allowed to use a Soulstone? When it's permitted. What permits it?

Use Soulstone Ability
when it specifically states it can

The Doves don't fit either category.

Sort of like Cheating. You can cheat every Duel, but not every flip.

[Chipacabra]

Here's the easy way to look at it. When is a model allowed to use a Soulstone? When it's permitted. What permits it?

Use Soulstone Ability
when it specifically states it can

The Doves don't fit either category.

Sort of like Cheating. You can cheat every Duel, but not every flip.

But Disappearing Act says discard a soulstone. I haven't seen anything in the rulebook, or errata, or this forum that suggests you HAVE to have Use Soulstone in this case. Please, cite the rule that says you can't discard a soulstone when an ability tells you to discard a soulstone. I really want to know.

[Keltheos]

p.118

The actual Use Soulstone Ability description.

[Buhallin]

If there are any additional requirements that must be met in order for the spell to be cast, they must be met now or the spell immediately fails. These requirements are found in the first sentence of the Spell's description and include: the caster suffering Wd, sacrificing/discarding Counters or Soulstones...

Spending the soulstone is not an effect - it is a requirement. The spell doesn't enable you to spend the stone if you couldn't normally, any more than it would allow you to discard a counter you didn't have.

So even if you cast the spell successfully, you then have to discard a soulstone. If you can't (because it's a requirement, not an instruction) then the spell immediately fizzles and does nothing else.

Edit: Removed irrelevant rules citation, since the first one covers it.

[tenabrae]

I'm kinda in the devil's advocate category here... Is an Additional Requirement for a spell or similar really a Use Soulstone kinda deal ? Collette and her crew can make models without soulstones/use soulstone discard them.

If so, could be worth adding to the next FAQ.

[Chipacabra]

p.118

The actual Use Soulstone Ability description.

What about it? Here's the ability:

Use Soulstones
This model may use game effects that require soulstones. All Masters and Henchmen automatically have this ability unless states otherwise.

This says that having Use Soulstone gives you access to those game effects, but does NOT say that it is the only way you can discard soulstones. Nothing about that text says to me that it prevents a dove from casting Disappearing Act.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Does dove have use soulstone? - no
Does dove have any ability that allows it to discard soulstones? - no

Here is the clincher:
Does the absence of an ability give the model the ability? - NO

Here is key wording from magical extension that states how totem can use ss:
During this casting, this model may use a soulstone to CHANGE IT'S CASTING TOTAL while casting this spell.

Discard a ss for any other reason is not permitted. Unless model has some ability granted to or explicitly built into model.

[magicpockets]

Wow, two rules Marshalls have ruled on this and it's still being argued. Do some people think that Sketch is the only "Real" RM and Ratty and Keithos got RM badges by mistake? No one would argue like this with Sketch - and the fact it's happening like this to Kel and Ratty is kinda disrespectful :(

[LoboStele]

Spending the soulstone is not an effect - it is a requirement. The spell doesn't enable you to spend the stone if you couldn't normally, any more than it would allow you to discard a counter you didn't have.

So even if you cast the spell successfully, you then have to discard a soulstone. If you can't (because it's a requirement, not an instruction) then the spell immediately fizzles and does nothing else.


This is a perfect explanation here. Spending the Soulstone for Disappearing Act is a REQUIREMENT of the ability, not an effect from casting the spell. The Doves cannot fulfill this requirement because they do not have the Use Soulstone ability which allows them to discard Soulstones.

And, as magicpockets pointed out....TWO Rules Marshalls have already told you how it works, and pointed out WHERE in the rules it says so, and WHY it works the way it does. At this point, take a step back from arguing YOUR position, and re-read the rules and try to understand why the rule is the way it is. It's not going to change (nor does it need to! Doves are good already!).

[Mentat_Canis]

Yep I agree Magic as a Colette player basically I know now that I can only use one spell with magic extension but that is all I ever used anyway so I am all good.

Also Ratty is new so some people are getting used to him but he is doing a fantastic job and Kel has been killing it for a while now so keep going rules marshals. There is something to be said about the big bag bear because his rule is law more so then anyone because he has been around for so long.

Edit: Ninja'd by Lobo

[Adran]

I'm kinda in the devil's advocate category here... Is an Additional Requirement for a spell or similar really a Use Soulstone kinda deal ? Collette and her crew can make models without soulstones/use soulstone discard them.

No, the expensive gift can only target people with use soulstones.
So any use of soulstone is "a use of soulstone".

[Chipacabra]

Look, I'm not trying to be difficult here. Here's the deal, our local gaming group is used to That British Company. We're no strangers to rulings that are in direct conflict with the rules. It also frustrates us, and that's why we're looking for better rules.

For the most part, Malifaux IS a better ruleset. For the most part, rules questions are resolved in a much more satisfactory way.

But I'm sorry, this just isn't one of those cases. I'm probably going to have be one of the rules adjucators at the local store. Most of the players don't read the forums (some of them aren't big readers in general), and I need to be able to point at something better than 'a guy on the forum said the opposite of the rules' when this comes up, and it will. Appeal to authority is one of biggest logical fallacies that ever fallated an argument.

So please, please, please, accept that I'm not just trolling, I'm not just being argumentative. I will accept an explanation that can be justified. A rule I missed, fine. Errata, fine.

But as it is, there has still been no one that has pointed out any rule that prevents the dove from discarding a soulstone when it is told to discard a soulstone, and there is one rule that PERMITS the dove to discard a soulstone when told to.

I'm not arguing because I don't think Ratty is a valid rules advocate, I'm arguing because he has given an answer unsupported by the rules. I'm not asking for someone higher up to parrot the same answer, since that still isn't getting anywhere. What I want is for the answer to match the rules. Either change the answer, or change the rule.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

But as it is, there has still been no one that has pointed out any rule that prevents the dove from discarding a soulstone when it is told to discard a soulstone, and there is one rule that PERMITS the dove to discard a soulstone when told to.
http://nezumi.me.uk/Malifaux/NewWebsite/M_Clarification.jpg
A model can only discard a Soulstone if they specifically have an Ability that allows them to do so or the Ability called Use Soulstone.

The Spell Magical Extension only allows for the Mechanical Dove (or any model with that Spell) to be able to discard a Soulstone to change the starting total of Casting the chosen Spell.

That's the only time the Mechanical doves may Discard Soulstones.