When does Hamelin's insignificant end

[magicpockets]

I can't find the original thread to necro to get this answer so thought it'd make sense to repost it for an answer.

If Hamelin's crew makes stuff insignificant, when does it end? The skills etc say "until the end of the encounter" - so does insignificant end before VPs are calculated which happens after the end of the game?

[Sandwich]

I would say its a toss up, RaW or RaI.
Though I don't rightly know the intention.

But I'm on the "It ends before VP is calculated" boat.

[tadaka]

So the idea being is models could still get vp for some thing like breakthrough then?

[tenabrae]

I would say until the models leave play, which would be after VPs.

[magicpockets]

For the record, I'm with Sandwich on this. Make them insignificant for the game advantage, but not for VPs. But we need a RM on this.

[Hookers]

For the record, I'm with Sandwich on this. Make them insignificant for the game advantage, but not for VPs. But we need a RM on this.

rules as written that is how it works. "until the end" of the encounter means it ends at the end of the encounter. VPs are calculated after the end of the encounter, or at the end of the encounter. Either point in time is after "until the end" of the encounter meaning the effect will not still be active.

[tadaka]

rules as written that is how it works. "until the end" of the encounter means it ends at the end of the encounter. VPs are calculated after the end of the encounter, or at the end of the encounter. Either point in time is after "until the end" of the encounter meaning the effect will not still be active.


Book says at the end for vp and that's the same thing as at the end. That being said I would not mind seeing it being ruled the other way. I just cant agree that is rules as written.

[magicpockets]

Bump for a RM

[Hookers]

Book says at the end for vp and that's the same thing as at the end.

correct. at the end is the same as at the end. it is different from until the end.


think of it like the difference between < and =

until the end is everything up til that point, whereas at the end is only that point. so as soon as the end happens, the effect stops since it only lasts until the end. at this point you calculate vps.

thats RAW, and almost certainly intent

[MadArcanist]

Bump for an rm too, mainly cause I wanna pick hamlin up soon and wanna know for if I wanna be a dick on the board or not

[LoboStele]

Woah, that's weird....see, I had thought from reading it that you would be Insignificant...like....forever. Like it could really hose you on any Schemes/Strategies, unless you managed to kill Hamelin before the end of the game.

I sort of see the argument here, for "until the end" vs. "at the end". I wonder if it isn't somewhat similar to the "within X range" discussions shortly before the Rules Manual came out though. Definitely need a Marshall ruling on that.

[Hookers]

Definitely need a Marshall ruling on that.


whenever you use the word "until" what is the use you associate with it?

do you mean forever? you do mean that you want whatever you said until with to go beyond that?

no of course not. i will be single until i get married. the minute i get married i am no longer single. anything that was a condition upon me being single no longer exists (:kabong:)

you are insignificant until the end of the encounter happens. as soon as that happens you are no longer insignificant.

i think the plain language of the rules speak for themselves on this

[LoboStele]

Yes, but you tally VP "at the end" of the encounter. So, is that something which is completely outside of the encounter, or is the 'end' still considered a part of the encounter? I understand the argument, and I would tend to agree, as otherwise, Hamelin's crew is nearly broken in that it would force you to kill Hamelin almost every game in order to pull off your strategy/schemes.

It's the darn english language. Too many ways to interpret words sometimes.

[magicpockets]

Look, I agree that insignificant lasts until the end, then comes off and then you calculate VPs. But some people don't, so lets just get a Sketch or someone to confirm it and we can all sleep easier at night ;)

[Sandwich]

Yes, but you tally VP "at the end" of the encounter. So, is that something which is completely outside of the encounter, or is the 'end' still considered a part of the encounter? I understand the argument, and I would tend to agree, as otherwise, Hamelin's crew is nearly broken in that it would force you to kill Hamelin almost every game in order to pull off your strategy/schemes.

It's the darn english language. Too many ways to interpret words sometimes.

Doesn't the RM say you tally VP after the end of the encounter?

[Hookers]

Doesn't the RM say you tally VP after the end of the encounter?

it actually does say at. i don't think that makes a difference


perhaps someone is envisioning a fraction of an unmeasurable second where you can sneak in calculating vps before "until" ends at that exact same moment.

i haven't ever seen until used in a way different than what i'm describing.

here is what webster says:

–conjunction 1. up to the time that or when; till: He read until his guests arrived.

2. before (usually used in negative constructions): They did not come until the meeting was half over.


–preposition 3. onward to or till (a specified time or occurrence): She worked until 6 p.m.

4. before (usually used in negative constructions): He did not go until night.


i think that is the same definition 4 times but i could be wrong. either way all of those definitions support my explanation and understanding of how that rule is supposed to work

[magicpockets]

–preposition 3. onward to or till (a specified time or occurrence): She worked until 6 p.m.


So by your reasoning, if I said "she finished work at 6pm" that would be different? ;)

[Hookers]

So by your reasoning, if I said "she finished work at 6pm" that would be different? ;)

yes. "she finished work at 6pm" describes the moment when she was done working ie. at 5:59:59 she was still working and is done the moment it turns 6:00:00. the reason this sentence has the same meaning as the example sentence is precisely because until means all of the moments up to that point, excluding that point itself. you changed the point of reference from the time she was actually working to the time when she stopped working. "she worked until 6pm" describes the duration of her work, at 6pm she is no longer working. also your example goes more into the definition of "at" than the definition of "until." we can go down that road if you want...

but a more similar example would be "she worked until 6pm. she started enjoying her weekend at 6pm." she cannot enjoy her weekend while she is working, her work lasts until the moment before 6pm (again the less than example) and "at" 6 pm she starts to enjoy her weekend

for the game terms your sentences would be comparing "the model is insignificant until the end of the encounter" with "the model is finished being insignificant at the end of the encounter." which is precisely what i am saying.

again



perhaps someone is envisioning a fraction of an unmeasurable second where you can sneak in calculating vps before "until" ends at that exact same moment.

[magicpockets]

Like I said from the start, I agree with you and - to be honest - I don't understand why you're on such a high horse about this, were not saving lives here - its only a game after all.

There's some confusion, and no matter how eloquenty you argue your point there'll always be some confusion (or rules wrangling) until a RM steps in and clears I up. So why not just chill and wait.

Having said that, I'm not sure why this is takin so long to be answered by someone - if it is as clean cut as we think then it should be an easy one to answer, it's a question of intent and shouldn't need playteting etc. Perhaps there's more to it than we think?

[Hookers]

Like I said from the start, I agree with you and - to be honest - I don't understand why you're on such a high horse about this, were not saving lives here - its only a game after all.



do i sound like i'm on a high horse? i apologize. it is the internet after all.

you made a statement that sounds like the same thing in the vernacular but had a subtle difference with the example sentence, and that difference was the same difference that is found in the wording of the rules. i might have even used too many examples to clarify it, but again, internet, so can never have too much clarification when it comes to the written word.


it would not be hard to have a rules marshall confirm what "until" means, but at the same time, words mean what they mean and when every possible use of the word means the same thing there isn't anything left to interpretation.


i know you said you are agreeing with me, but at the same time i'm not arguing with you either. i'm explaining exactly why there is only one possible interpretation.


it would requiring a ruling if they were to say that the insignificant does carry over past the end of the game, because then they have defined "until" differently for their ruleset (up to and including the point in time).

[tenabrae]

Sooo... if insig ends before VPs... does hamelin's crew also lose the benefit of being not insignificant ?

I think it's a pretty huge can of worms, what about buried models since the game effect burying them would end before VPs ? What about models that need tokens or counters, do they continue to exist and count for VPs ?

[magicpockets]

i'm explaining exactly why there is only one possible interpretation.

Okay, and we hear you. Can you let it go now until we get a RM?


Sooo... if insig ends before VPs... does hamelin's crew also lose the benefit of being not insignificant ?

I think it's a pretty huge can of worms, what about buried models since the game effect burying them would end before VPs ? What about models that need tokens or counters, do they continue to exist and count for VPs ?

I think that's in danger of making it more complicated than it is. No other skill etc (iirc) has an impact on VPs with a reference to anything ending "at the end of the game" - let's just keep this thread about Hamelin. However of course you can start your own thread if you feel strongly about it.

[tenabrae]

I think that's in danger of making it more complicated than it is. No other skill etc (iirc) has an impact on VPs with a reference to anything ending "at the end of the game" - let's just keep this thread about Hamelin. However of course you can start your own thread if you feel strongly about it.
I cannot agree with your premise.

Rules don't exist in a vacuum, where there's no rule to say otherwise making a urling that one thing ends before VPs are calculated implies everything does.

Not only that, but surely ruling that cases of insignificant applied by hamelin&friends end before calculating VPs is also strongly tied to Hamelin/Nix's ability to make Hamelins own models count as significant for the same purpose ?

I see no need to create a new thread to discuss closely related topics that are likely to be impacted by any ruling on the topic.

[magicpockets]

I see no need to create a new thread to discuss closely related topics that are likely to be impacted by any ruling on the topic.

I was talking about your reference to counters etc... not Hamelin's crew

[Hookers]

Sooo... if insig ends before VPs... does hamelin's crew also lose the benefit of being not insignificant ?


no. Nihilism - ... If this model is in play at the end of the encounter, no friendly models count as insignificant.




I think it's a pretty huge can of worms, what about buried models since the game effect burying them would end before VPs ? What about models that need tokens or counters, do they continue to exist and count for VPs ?Vague question. If you name an ability I can explain why it still works.

Two off the top of my head-

Death Marshall's Pine Box - Explicitly says "while target is removed from play, it counts as a casualty for scenario purposes." The model would have a final chance during the last closing phase to make a Wp->Wp duel to come back.

Colette's Disappearing Act - Also explicitly says when the model returns (during the start closing phase) which happens before the end of the encounter and thus the model would be present for scoring VPs.


The abilities that affect VPs state so expressly ie. Excessive Bleeding, Mark for Death, Pine box



As far as "letting it go" I am only responding to anything that would call into the question the validity of my explanation. I want to be playing with the correct rules as much as everyone else, so if someone points out why my understanding is incorrect I want to know about it. Interesting points have been made but nothing that changes the extremely simple definition of "until" or the difference between "until" and "at."




Even if the author intended the ability to count for VP purposes at the end of the encounter without expressly stating it as opposed to every other ability that does so, I doubt a rules marshall would come now and say that it does affect it. The ability already makes it so you can't target hamelin (which is good enough to want to use it) and prevents you with interacting with most objectives during the game. Extending it to beyond the game is not only unnecessary but might be unbalanced.

[tenabrae]

All the nightmare bury effects ?

Pairs of canine remains (and other models with similar ability)

These are off the top of my head, I'm sure if we went model by model we could find all sorts of things that might make a difference if game effects end before VPs are calculated.

[Hookers]

Pairs of canine remains (and other models with similar ability)



really? that one is easy. if there are more than one within 3" then they aren't insignificant. if there isn't then they are insignificant. it's straight up what the ability says.




All the nightmare bury effects ?


not as straight forward but it doesn't have to be inconsistent. all the dreamer has to do is pop them out before the game ends. if the dreamer dies they all come out. that's why that ability was put in there for this exact reason.

also what happens when you are buried is completely different than the issue that is confusing people here (what until means). i brought up the bury effects because the ones that keep you from scoring VPs explicitly say so.

keep em coming! :party:

[Dolomyte]

can we at least get acknowledgement that this is being looked into?

[Hookers]

I'm sure if we went model by model we could find all sorts of things that might make a difference if game effects end before VPs are calculated.

I just don't understand the paranoia that saying "until means what it says" will somehow have far reaching effects across the board and break the game.

I'm not saying all game effects end; I'm saying the ones that explicitly say they end a la "until the end of the encounter" end when they say they do. Other things happen when they say they happen (such as calculating VPs, etc.)

[tenabrae]

I guess we'll have to wait and see what open minds make of it.

[magicpockets]

I guess we'll have to wait and see what open minds make of it.

I think we're on the same page here ;)

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Are we done going back and forth now?

It's only Monday morning for crying out loud...

We'll get back to you all later today. No need to keep going on and on...

[mythicFOX]

Wow this thread got a little metaphysical.

Stalking the line between where the game ends and the reality begins... :)

[magicpockets]

Are we done going back and forth now?

It's only Monday morning for crying out loud...

We'll get back to you all later today. No need to keep going on and on...

Yay, the bear speaks :D

[Keltheos]

"Until the end of the Encounter" effects last through the Determining a Winner part of the Encounter, so models that wound up Insignificant until the end of the Encounter would count as such for Strategy and Scheme purposes and while determining VP.

[LoboStele]

"Until the end of the Encounter" effects last through the Determining a Winner part of the Encounter, so models that wound up Insignificant until the end of the Encounter would count as such for Strategy and Scheme purposes and while determining VP.

This is sort of what I had figured anyways, as that seemed to be part of Hamelin's schtick. Biggest impact is on Treasure Hunt...just gotta keep one piece Significant and make sure they have the gold. ;) Any other things that really take that big of a hit?

[Elazar]

Reconnoiter. I often find it a tough-ish Strategy with Leveticus due to the insignificant on SPAs etc so I can imagine this being a tough one to do once Hamelin starts dishing it out. I suppose the key will be keeping key objective holders out of harms way until you can deal with those that can pass on that 'gift' Necropunks for me as they can stay in cover and leap with a bit of luck. Once Hamelin and Nix have gone your opponent is in the same boat so there's hope! :)

[PlasticBoy]

and collodi laughs all the way to the bank :)

[Hookers]

It affects claim jump, distract, reconnoiter, treasure hunt, and turf war. About 40% of the strategies and a fair number of the schemes too.

Like I said if it was ruled that way it would be changing the definition of "until" ("up to and excluding that point in time") for the purposes of the rules of the game, which is of course perfectly acceptable. However, there is already a word that means "up to and including that point in time" and that word is "through." :flute:

[LoboStele]

Darn that English language. ;)

For what it's worth, 3 of those 5 Strategies you listed are off the 'Core' list which are also included in the Gaining Ground document. So, odds are you'd have at least 1-2 rounds in a tournament where Hamelin would be exceptionally powerful.

I hate Reconnoiter anyways though, LOL. And with Treasure Hunt, as long as you've got the Treasure Counter in your Deployment zone, it's still a 2-0 score in your favor, whether the carrier is insignificant or not. So, still possible to beat out Hamelin in that one, as long as you get to the treasure first. Claim Jump would likely be the trickiest one, but as pointed out above, and similar to Reconnoiter, you'd just have to make sure you kill Hamelin and Nix. Make it so neither person gets any points for Reconnoiter. Or, if you can swing it, keep a Significant model in the back corner on each side of your board. Really make the Hamelin player work for it to come get the models you have back there. Although, until Hamelin and Nix are dead, the Hamelin player will ALWAYS have more Significant models than anyone else, lol.

Destroy Evidence could be pretty crazy tough to pull off too, but would just be a matter of sacrificing whatever you needed to in order to VERY quickly get the objective markers.

I suppose though, out of the 'Core' rules, there are 4 strategies where Insignificant could really hurt, but should be ways to work around it. The other two, Contain Power and Slaughter....Hamelin's weak points. So, overall, probably not too bad, balance wise. At least forces people in a tournament setting to make sure that they have more than 1 crew, so that they can handle doing Slaughter or CP.

[Hookers]

Darn that English language. ;)



:patriot: Just arguing some semantics!

haha I actually don't care at all about the effects it has on the game itself, I was just pointing them out because someone asked. If you play against hamelin in a tournament tell him to have fun trying to finish the game in the time limit. :toilet:

(ok that smiley didn't even make much sense, but I'm getting pretty close to having used them all, so fun)

[magicpockets]

Wow, didn't see that coming. Kinda makes me want to back to my last master to make it fairer and more fun for my opponents - and that was Pandora :lol:

[Ratty]

If you know you are playing one of these strategies against Outcase make sure you choose the right crew. Shrug Off or Dispel with Guild, Summoning based with Ressurectionists. Zoraida will be very good for Neverborn as she can summon Wicked Dolls and any Wicked Doll in range of her counts as significant, Collodi for a similar reason is great. Arcanists are a hard choice. Arcanist and Outcasts are a bit harder but you can always run denial.

Schemes are chosen after crews are revealed so just don't choose one that need significant models.

[Hookers]

Summoning based with Ressurectionists.

it would have to be the kirai/mcmourning "summon out of thin air" kind of summoning because there won't be any counters

[MadArcanist]

Seems fair considering Hamlin himself has little to no damage spell (other then Bleeding Disease and no one really uses that on him)

All in all it makes him a strong master, but not in the way we normally think of when we say "strong" master

[Sandwich]

Seems fair considering Hamlin himself has little to no damage spell (other then Bleeding Disease and no one really uses that on him)

All in all it makes him a strong master, but not in the way we normally think of when we say "strong" master

Hamelin is more than capable of bearing fangs.

(0)Fate is Meaningless means severe damage on either weapon whenever he wants, his Pipes are 1/3/3 so even a moderate hurts bad, and with a 7 Cb he won't be cheating super high all the time.
His Staff is 0/3/9 with the aforementioned (0)Fate is Meaningless that's pretty much a one shot on all models in game real quick and easy.
(1)Irresistible Lure is possibly the best AoE damaging spell in game. It only pulls models that can't hurt you and blasts them for 0/3/6 straight flip if they happen to touch you. With (+1)Fast that's a real lethal spell.
Then you come to the standard (1)Bleeding Disease which obviously does rely on your rats to smack things once or twice to use, but once a model has a single Blight Counter, Hamelin's (1)Bleeding Plague becomes utterly brutal due to Cb(:crows)Plague which basically allows you to spam that model to death.

[magicpockets]

But Sandwich, you've got to agree he's certainly less worrisome than a few weeks ago before we started dissecting his rules and lookingat counters?

[WUWU]

But Sandwich, you've got to agree he's certainly less worrisome than a few weeks ago before we started dissecting his rules and lookingat counters?

Hamelin is still pretty worrisome. No change there. But the ability to take down a Rat Catcher in one activation is a pretty big difference for the crews overall effectiveness

[magicpockets]

Hamelin is still pretty worrisome. No change there. But the ability to take down a Rat Catcher in one activation is a pretty big difference for the crews overall effectiveness

Yeah, I agree with that. Even psychologically opponents seem happier playing with that change, rather than thinking "what's the point"

[Sandwich]

But Sandwich, you've got to agree he's certainly less worrisome than a few weeks ago before we started dissecting his rules and lookingat counters?

Most definately, it works to simmer him down.

It really forces defensive play with the Swarm and I really like that change of pace.

It works perfectly to balance out with Indiscriminate Void.

That isn't to say I still think he's slightly tipped, but the reduction of Wd was certainly a step in a favorable direction.

[schristofersen]

It affects claim jump, distract, reconnoiter, treasure hunt, and turf war. About 40% of the strategies and a fair number of the schemes too.


So... check me on this... but if the Hamelin player looses Nix they are suddenly stuck with a crew that cannot handle about 40% of the strategies and a fair number of the schemes?

I still think Hamelin is bonkers but that does significantly help target priority, perhaps I am missing something.

[Q'iq'el]

it would have to be the kirai/mcmourning "summon out of thin air" kind of summoning because there won't be any counters

Nicodem has ways of protecting his counters - remember the stuff model carries can't be destroyed by other models, unless their spell specifically permits it. Vultures can teleport all the counters lying around them directly into Nicodem's possession.

Not a perfect solution, as the opponent will be able to destroy some tokens in-between activations, but he can still count on reclaiming the ones his own minions drop.

[Hookers]

:dead:




Not a perfect solution, as the opponent will be able to destroy some tokens in-between activations, but he can still count on reclaiming the ones his own minions drop.

Well how did his own minions drop those counters? Probably because they were killed by rats, which will be able to destroy the counters before you activate.




Also Hamelin himself keeps the crew from being insignificant. Nix and Hamelin are both extremely difficult to kill. But yes, you are correct if you manage to kill them both then you are doing well.


Though I could honestly care less about Hamelin nowadays. I know what he does, I know how he plays, I know why its bad and is not fun for anyone, but its not going to change so I just avoid him to the extent that I can.

:goodnight

[schristofersen]

hmm... lame... I missed that hamelin himself has nihilism as well.
I agree. No fun and worse than demons in 7th ed warhammer fantasy.

[Necromorph]

Hell I play him and I don't think it's fun anymore now that I've learned him.
The only people I play him against are our Guild Players. I have no fun playing against Guild (our Guild players like to go for maximum cheese-factor in their lists, which isn't hard, and I just find myself not having fun). So, simple fix, make the whole game not fun by playing Hamelin and making them cry...pretty balanced IMO, hahaha.

[magicpockets]

Nicodem has ways of protecting his counters - remember the stuff model carries can't be destroyed by other models, unless their spell specifically permits it.

Just to add, remember mindless zombies count as corpse counters - these can be used as rat food ;)

[schristofersen]

Hell I play him and I don't think it's fun anymore now that I've learned him.
The only people I play him against are our Guild Players. I have no fun playing against Guild (our Guild players like to go for maximum cheese-factor in their lists, which isn't hard, and I just find myself not having fun). So, simple fix, make the whole game not fun by playing Hamelin and making them cry...pretty balanced IMO, hahaha.

This and "OMG Collodi!" threads give me hope that the solution of balance by more broken might already be there... I just have not looked hard enough. We will see.

[magicpockets]

This and "OMG Collodi!" threads give me hope that the solution of balance by more broken might already be there...

But it'll be a sad day if thats how "balance" happens :(

[schristofersen]

But it'll be a sad day if thats how "balance" happens :(

I dunno... I prefer it to getting bored to tears like with fallen empires and homelands in M:tg.

I am more and more convinced that Hamelin needs some balancing but I don't mind how that happens. I'll stop necro threading this along and switch to the ways to deal with Hamelin thread I think.

[Odin1981]

Hell I play him and I don't think it's fun anymore now that I've learned him.
The only people I play him against are our Guild Players. I have no fun playing against Guild (our Guild players like to go for maximum cheese-factor in their lists, which isn't hard, and I just find myself not having fun). So, simple fix, make the whole game not fun by playing Hamelin and making them cry...pretty balanced IMO, hahaha.

The players you have been playing lately aren't even that experianced with guild, are new to the game, and don't know how to use the guild correctly.

Anytime you want Adrian i'll willingly dust off my dita list against hamelin. I don't think he is that bad (granted all but one model in my list can wipe off insignificant). I'm not scared off him in the slightest because two models (hamelin and nix) can't beat my army.

Granted I understand most factions don't have alot of end effect on models and I don't own a crew based on ht 1 models but given the rock paper scissors aspect of this game he really doesn't seem that bad unless you face him with a faction or model count that just can't kill him.

I personally believe most(not all) people just get emotionally invested in what they want to run and when faced with a crew that counters what they are good at instead of changing around their crew accordingly or adjusting tactics to be able to give them matches that fairly even (thus becoming skill vs skill based not this crew vs this crew).

If you were to look at the this board and see most of the complaining about stuff (mainly these days book 2 stuff) it can be broken down into a few things:

Alot of the new crews featured in book 2 are speed crews (eldar for those familiar with 40k).

Most of the people that complain about this point more than likely have book 1 crews without alot of book 2 additions, deploy very sporadically and are not focused in a given area.

They also more than likely do not move their crews as a unit and have some things just go here and there for schemes, strats, and important kill priority models.

The big advantage this gives the speed crews is that it fits directly into what they are good at pick a model or two each turn and focus fire down and the their speed (inferior most cases) versus our speed factor(superior) for objectives.

The other big thing is lack of familiarity/experiance in dealing with said crews or quite possibly lack of the right combination of models your faction has that can counteract what the opposing crew can do (for example lilith vs perdita if the dita player wins they are playing on a board with like no terrain, gremlins vs hamelin lol do i really have to go into this matchup?, and other varius one sided match ups).

One thing I have noticed from playing my dita crew vs others is that most people don't understand that outside of dita and fransisco none of my crew can beat there way out of a paper bag. Alot of people complain about their inability to beat them.

But they don't take alot quick models 5-6" walk or companion style doll rat crews that can close the distance via multiple activation synergies, and I think their is only like two people i've ever played against that would actually sit just outside of 10" range consolidate their forces and then swarm into the 10" zone all in one turn.

[schristofersen]

It is really funny to watch play groups go through phases with masters they think are borken.
I still think Hamelin is way up there in the power but have found others (i'm looking at you LCB) can be just as bonkers and fun to play with.
Mostly what I have found is that if you concentrate on the game in terms of schemes and such to get VP you stop worrying about how one crew or another can beat face in a brawl.
Heck I am at the point that I think Kirae has just as many shenanigans she can use.
I know i've said so earlier in the thread but it is the variity of "OMFG thats crazy!" piecies that makes it fun for me. Tip the scales by adding more weight to the other sides not by lightening the pieces till you have stupified me into leaving the game due to it being boring.

[Odin1981]

What you say schristoferson only goes so far about focusing on schemes/strats. For me personally strats schemes are a second thought (ie done turn 4 or later).

And specifically the speed crews assuming that they are piloted by people versed in their execution and combos really would love you for trying to do just that. Outside of having two schemes that combo well with another (example being grudge, kill protege).

I personally play to set up first two turns on positioning to squash one of my opponents schemes and interact with the opponents stratgey to at most get 1/2 points from it(2). As well as kill priority (the 3 things I do not want to deal with all game).

If you per say just go for schemes unless you pick two that mesh well and are easy to get will find yourself at best with 5 points at the end of the game (2 for the scheme you complete, 1 from the scheme you announce but don't get and 2 possibly 0 from your strat) that would leave the speed crew with possibly needing just 4 points from their strat and announcing just 2 schemes not even needing to complete them to win 6-5.

For most of the speed crews with careful selecting of schemes (ensuring two schemes get points for announcing and not having one that gives you a - point for not completing) this isn't hard to do at all (unless whatever higher power you believe in hates you and you flip supply wagon twice)

[Mike3838]

Odin,

From what you've written above I think you may have misunderstood the announcing of schemes.

You don't get 1VP just for announcing it. You make it sound like you've been banking 2VP for announcing two schemes that you then fail to complete?

In actuality, you get PLUS 1 VP for announcing the scheme, that is, 2 for announcing and completing, and still zero for announcing and failing.

The additional VP is for managing to complete the scheme with the added complication of your opponent knowing you're gunning for it. It isn't a free point.

Mike

[Drake]

:ditto: Totally the case, +1 for making it harder for yourself and still completing it. 0 VP for failing it. So it is still all to play for. Bear in mind when you announce, you have to announce all of the scheme, e.g. who your grudge is on, not just the fact you are taking Grudge.

This makes some schems really difficult if announced, like Frame for Murder, but does make the game more interesting.

e.g. frame for murder on your most expensive model....you may end up getting no VP for it, but you can shove your best model in your masters face, and if he actually took kill protege, well that puts you on even score whether your model dies or not...leaves just 1 scheme each and strategy to try and win on....

Food for thought.

Back on topic, as an Arcanist player, not much to deal with Hamelin, although have had some more ideas...December Acolyte for Devour on rats to stop them being summoned when killed....?

[Q'iq'el]

What you say schristoferson only goes so far about focusing on schemes/strats. For me personally strats schemes are a second thought (ie done turn 4 or later).

Actually it goes much deeper than that. The shallowness of the master and minions analysis on the inerwebz is the reason why Marcus has such a bad rep or why people have been thinking Pandora is impossible to beat from the day one.

Most of these analyses are completely out of context. There's no context of Strategies, there's no taking random factors into the consideration (the Hand is either very lucky or very average, depending on the author), but most of all there is no thinking about Encounters as a whole and about locations as vital factor for Malifaux balance.

In fact, many clubs simply skip locations they think to be boring (Bog anyone? Forested terrain?) and tournaments usually do not use locations there are no tables or terrain for (as far as I can tell, hopefully there are more thorough organizers around).

How many tournaments use the rules for fighting inside big structures already? How are these big blobs of Rats performing in narrow corridors, huh?


This is a two-sided coin. On one side, masters typically have Strategies and Locations they are bad at, which gives other masters a chance to show up (especially if you can chose your master for the game). On the other side, once you have to plan for all kind of locations, terrain and Strategies, you stop packing up your crew with the killers and you start to take utility. That inevitably tones down many of the most deadly crews.


So before we start shaking the nerf stick, try to set up some really challenging terrain. :)

[magicpockets]

^^^ That is one of the best posts on this topic I've seen. Kudos Q'iq'el