So, Collodi vs. Hamelin...

[Necromorph]

So, as we know, making things insignificant is a big part of Hamelin's tactics.

I'm wondering how Collodi's "Living Puppets" Ability would work against him. The ability reads that "Friendly Dolls lose insignificant while within 12" of this model." Now this is not an aura, it's a static ability, and it does not declare that Dolls are "immune" to insignificant.

The question is, is there a way for Hamelin to get around it? I don't think so, but maybe. Hamelin's Stolen can cast Succumb on individual models, but I'm not sure it would have any effect considering it would not be removing and Immunity or a resistance to WP duels. However, Hamelin's Irresistible Lure can work against some dolls because they're Ht1 but he wouldn't be able to pull Marionettes 8" from Collodi. If my line of thinking is correct, Collodi could be a big counter to Hamelin, at least from an objective game standpoint, because I really don't see Collodi having an easy time actually Killing Hamelin, but in objective games, Collodi could really throw a wrench in the cogs so to speak.

Any thoughts?

[Stern]

Well hamelin makes thinks insignificant but Collodi overides that if within 12" making them lose insignificant... even if you repeatedly cast insignificant against them.

[PlasticBoy]

having played this fight its a tough one for both sides. Collodi really needs to focus on objectives and if the possibility opens up them jumping hamelin. Mainly collodi wants to kill nix then run rampant grabbing objectives/schemes.

Hamelin has a tough time dealing with the movement, it forces him to be more aggressive in actually killing stuff when there is the chance to. He really doesn't need to make models insignificant because all but the stitched dolls already are and collodi ignores that in his aura.

Frankly, any game against collodi comes down to killing the marionettes and then wrecking the 'essentially stranded' collodi. Hamelin can do this well but it take some effort in catching them.

Its a fun matchup for sure. In my game Collodi actually did kill Hamelin by himself in that last 2 turns.

[Hookers]

the point is pretty much moot if the dolls are still ht 1....


but yes i think collodi's ability would make them not insignificant no matter how many other game effects were making them insignificant

[Ratty]

I think the Wicked Dolls would work similarly when near a Bad Juju or Zoraida. They already have the insignificant trait but that trait gets removed when they are within 3"... So if Hamelin made them insig they would still just have the insignificant trait and it would still work exactly like before.

[Sandwich]

Hamelin could not make the Dolls Insignificant as they are already Insignificant and Collodi immediately removes it.
So yes, he could spam (1)Understand the Soulless, but it would do nothing.

Marrionettes are still Ht 1, so it doesn't matter if they're Insignificant.

Collodi is the hard counter to Hamelin.
Speed + Immune to Insignificant.

Though I'd argue that (0)Wicked Dolls can't get you a Doll.
But you don't really need more Dolls anyway.

[tadaka]

Um why cant he make more dolls. The ability requires him to kill a model to use it. Has he killed a model he can use the ability. His ability makes the summon not the rats death.

If it said when this model kills a model summon a rat then it would prevent it. Killing a model enables the ability it does not make a rat.

[hippieshopper]

That's what I think too, but no rules marshal in sight.

Voracious Rats states that no model may be summoned as a result of this model being killed.

Wicked dolls say you have to Kill a model and summon a wicked doll.

[Necromorph]

Yes, Marionettes are Ht1, but they can't be moved more than 8" from Collodi, so Irresistable Lure can really only effect Wicked Dolls at this point.

Speaking of Wicked Dolls, (0) Murderous has the same wording as (0) Drain Blood for Nephilim. It says that this ability may be used immediately after killing a model...etc etc. I don't see why the same argument wouldn't apply. It's not the rat dying that's making a model, it's the Doll's (0) action.

Thanks for the input btw, it's nice to see that some people have gone ahead and play tested this matchup before Collodi's release.

[Sandwich]

Yes, Marionettes are Ht1, but they can't be moved more than 8" from Collodi, so Irresistable Lure can really only effect Wicked Dolls at this point.

Speaking of Wicked Dolls, (0) Murderous has the same wording as (0) Drain Blood for Nephilim. It says that this ability may be used immediately after killing a model...etc etc. I don't see why the same argument wouldn't apply. It's not the rat dying that's making a model, it's the Doll's (0) action.

Thanks for the input btw, it's nice to see that some people have gone ahead and play tested this matchup before Collodi's release.

As for the Marrionettes, they can be lured away, but the second they activate you get to push them to within 8" of Collodi.
I think, but don't quote me, I'm ignorant.

And (0)Murderous is affected by Voracious Rats because you are "Summoning a model as a result of the model being Killed" which Voracious Rats specifically says you cannot do.

Voracious Rats does not effect (0)Drain Blood because Voracious Rats states "The model does not generate any counters of any kind." but the Blood Counter generated is not actually from the model that was killed, but from the Tot, Lilith, Nekima, et cetera.

It's like fine print.
But if you look carefully it makes sense. :]

Edit:

To simplify, because Voracious Rats tells you that you cannot summon a model as a result of a model being killed while within 6" of a model with Voracious Rats, things like (0)Murderous cannot take effect. You MUST kill a model to use (0)Murderous, and therefore the summoning is a result of a model being killed.

Had Voracious Rats stated "No Counters may be generated as a result of the model being killed" you would then be denied things like Blood Counters as well as Corpse and Scrap counters.

Although I don't think that simplified anything.

[Necromorph]

As for the Marrionettes, they can be lured away, but the second they activate you get to push them to within 8" of Collodi.
I think, but don't quote me, I'm ignorant.


Got my book, it says both. "Any Effect which moves this model may not move it further than 8" from a friendly Collodi." I also says that they will push to within 8" of Collodi if they activate further than 8" away, this though, is for when you're chaining Pull Strings and you end up with 1 or 2 Marionettes left behind after they all activate. As quoted though, you can't force/push/pull, etc a Marionette further than 8" from Collodi.

I reread the section on the Rats and Wicked Dolls and I guess it makes sense, just seems kind of silly that the wording of both abilities (Drain Blood and Murderous) is essentially the same, but the slight variation of wording in the Rats ability negates one and not the other.

Of course it doen't really matter, since Wicked Dolls can just be mass Irresistable Lure'd to Hamelin, it would just give him more dolls to kill /shrug.

[Ratty]

Saying the same thing the most times and loudest does not necessary make it correct. I don't think the whole thing is trivial, so I don't think you can be as definite as your claiming to be, Sandwich. There is a huge difference between

a) When a model is killed do X

&

b) When you perform X check if a model has been killed.

The former is definitely as a Reaction/Result of the death of the model. The second the Summon is the result of an Action which has a check. The Death doesn't make the Summon happen, You spending the (0) AP or casting the spell makes the Summon happen. IE the death does not instigate the Summon, the model taking the Action does.

Another example of this would be shooting a model. Is the model taking damage the result of.

a) It being in LOS (criteria which is checked when you Shoot)

or

b) You taking a Shooting Action.

You could easily argue that the model got damaged as result of it being in LOS. But I doubt anyone would. If you had an ability that said "if your model is in LOS of this model in the closing phase take 2Dg" then you definitely would be taking damage as the result of being in LOS.

I can't say that this is what is intended in the case of Voracious Rats. All I can do is read the RAW and make an educated guess as to how it should be played out, taking into account other ruling in the past on how certain wordings should be read. The way the ROE was ruled while it still existed gives us a very good idea of what counts as a direct Result of a Death and what instead counts as the direct Result of an Action (with death as a criteria).

[Sandwich]

Saying the same thing the most times and loudest does not necessary make it correct. I don't think the whole thing is trivial, so I don't think you can be as definite as your claiming to be, Sandwich. There is a huge difference between

a) When a model is killed do X

&

b) When you perform X check if a model has been killed.

The former is definitely as a Reaction/Result of the death of the model. The second the Summon is the result of an Action which has a check. The Death doesn't make the Summon happen, You spending the (0) AP or casting the spell makes the Summon happen. IE the death does not instigate the Summon, the model taking the Action does.

Another example of this would be shooting a model. Is the model taking damage the result of.

a) It being in LOS (criteria which is checked when you Shoot)

or

b) You taking a Shooting Action.

You could easily argue that the model got damaged as result of it being in LOS. But I doubt anyone would. If you had an ability that said "if your model is in LOS of this model in the closing phase take 2Dg" then you definitely would be taking damage as the result of being in LOS.

I can't say that this is what is intended in the case of Voracious Rats. All I can do is read the RAW and make an educated guess as to how it should be played out, taking into account other ruling in the past on how certain wordings should be read. The way the ROE was ruled while it still existed gives us a very good idea of what counts as a direct Result of a Death and what instead counts as the direct Result of an Action (with death as a criteria).

I think everyone is really attempting to over-contemplate the wording of Voracious Rats.

It states, word for word "No other model may be summoned as a result of the model being killed."

As soon as (0)Murderous doesn't require you to kill a model to summon another doll, I'll agree.

But for so long as you must kill a model in order to get a Doll, you are summoning a Doll as a result of that model being killed.

RaW that is how it works.
It may or may not change at some point in time (As the RM are eerily silent on most questions regarding Hamelin) but for now I will play as Hamelin will deny you things like that.

As for the latter, that's silly Ratty.
You're a smart guy.

[Ratty]

I think everyone is really attempting to over-contemplate the wording of Voracious Rats.

It states, word for word "No other model may be summoned as a result of the model being killed."

As soon as (0)Murderous doesn't require you to kill a model to summon another doll, I'll agree.

But for so long as you must kill a model in order to get a Doll, you are summoning a Doll as a result of that model being killed.

RaW that is how it works.
It may or may not change at some point in time (As the RM are eerily silent on most questions regarding Hamelin) but for now I will play as Hamelin will deny you things like that.

As for the latter, that's silly Ratty.
You're a smart guy.

It's exactly the same as the counters.



The model dying generates Corpse Counters therefore they don't drop a Counter. (As the Counter is Generated by the model dying)
Drain Blood generates a Blood Counter (with having killed a model as a criteria) so you do get a Counter. (As the Counter is Generated by the Action)

Summoning works exactly the same.


The model dying causes a Talent to come into effect that summons a model. No model would be summoned. (As they would be the result of a model dying)
The model carries out an Action that Summons a model (with having killed as a criteria), a model gets summoned. (As they are the result of a model taking an Action)

[tenabrae]

I think the insig deal would work that you ignore insig as long as you meet the criteria to... same as it would in Hamelin v Hamelin.

Also, I don't see why a model can't be insig twice, it doesn't stack, and won't do anything, but if you lose one source of insig you may still be affected by the other (in these cases irrelevant since insig is blanket removed by the abilities in question). If you were affected by say 2 instances of slow and one was removed, you'd still be affected by the other even though only one has a game effect at a given time.

[magicpockets]

I think if you're within range of an ability that says you lose insignificant you'd lose it permenantly and can't be "given" it back. iirc there was a thread about Pandora's expose fears where if a model gained an immunity to WP tests it would still lose it due to expose fears whilst in range - this seems very similar but the other way round :)

[gunpowder saint]

Screw the Rules! I have FLUFF!

why murderous works:

the dolls kill something, weather or not a rat or whatever comes shooting of it's dead body is irrelevant. Anyway the other wicked dolls are very impressed by the blood thirsty nature of the wicked doll and decide to join the winning side

Why Violation of Magic doesn't work:

have you ever tried making a small piece of play-dough into a large piece of play-dough? with a sword? in the middle of a Giant fight with several other people? lol I thought so