Paralyze?

[Stargazer]

So a few questions came up in a recent game.

We had a model gain paralyze outside of its activation before it had activated. Firstly does it still get the chance to "activate" and declare the removal of paralyzation as an activation therfore doing nothing but using up an activation or does it just drop out of the activation order entirely?

Secondly if it does get to "activate" and do nothing. Does the Paralyze wear off as soon as the model has activated or does it last until the closing phase ie. can you Obey it?

Thanks
Stargazer

[MrNybbles]

Malifaux: Rules Manual (The Game, p.34)

Paralyzed: A model gaining Paralyzed during its activation loses any remaining AP and its activation immediately ends. If the model gains Paralyzed outside of its activation, it forefits its next activation. While Paralized, a model has no melee range, cannot take any type of Action, cannot activate Triggers, and cannot react to disengaging models. A paralyzed model does not make a fall back move when it loses a Morale Duel, but dues rally as normal (Morale, p.56).
Underlines have been added for some of the key parts of the rules.

When a paralyzed model is chosen to activate, it instead forfeits the activation, then looses paralyzed. In other words stuff like Poison tokens don't inflict any damage because the model did not activate. Once it has forfeited the activation it then goes back to normal (and can make disengaging strikes, act when Obey is cast one it, etc).

There is no point in casting Obey on a paralyzed model because the model is unable to take any actions until after it has forfeited its next activation. Casting Obey does not cause the model to activate either so you can't get rid of Paralyzed that way.

[Stargazer]

but what if it hasn't yet activated that turn? Can it then "activate" to get rid of the paralyze and be obeyed later that turn?

[K.blas]

No. If it hasn't activated, it forfeits it's NEXT MOST CURRENT activation.

Think of it like the model that is paralyzed doesn't even exist for it's next activation.

[MrNybbles]

but what if it hasn't yet activated that turn? Can it then "activate" to get rid of the paralyze and be obeyed later that turn?

If your model that has not activated during the current turn becomes paralyzed, then when it is your activation (the time when you get to choose one of your models to activate) you can choose the paralyzed model, but instead of activating it forfeits its activation. After it has forfeited its activation then Obey will work as normal (unless of course the model gets Paralyzed again).

[ProdigalPunk]

Wow, that new wording seems worse then the previous wording in my opinion. I agree it is intended to activate, do nothing, and then remove paralysis, but that is not really what the rule says anymore. The way it is worded now makes it seem like you can not even choose to activate it, and paralysis goes away at the end of the turn.

[MrNybbles]

Hmmm, looking through the new Rules Manual they don't exactly say how you go about forfeiting the activation.

Looking at the wording " . . .it forefits its next activation" Paralysis does not go away at the end of the turn but when it would next activate. Yes, this filling in the blanks by rationalizing things. I'd really rather have rules spelled out so such things can be avoided.

If paralyzed went away at the end of the turn then you could paralyze a model who has already activated which would loose paralyze at the end of the turn without it loosing an activation.


. . .I agree it is intended to activate, do nothing, and then remove paralysis, . . .
I'm going to nit pick the wording a little ("activate, do nothing" vs "forfeits activation") only because the difference significantly impacts things like Poison Tokens. (Actually, offhand I can't think of anything else it would impact).

In the old rules you would actually activate the paralyzed model, Poison counters would inflict Wd and then one would be removed, and it's activation would immediately end.

In the new rules you would choose the paralyzed model as the one you would activate for your activation turn, but would instead forfeit the activation. Because the model doesn't actually activate, Poison Tokens don't inflict any wounds and none are removed from the model.

This change may be because the Performer could inflict 4 Poison Tokens on a Paralyzed model. Under the old rules it would activate and do nothing but suffer 4 Wd from poison before loosing paralyzed. Then on it's next activation it would suffer 3 more Wd. That's 7 Wd before the model could do anything else.


The wording for paralyzed is still a little iffy, but I think my interpretation works. Hopefully it is correct. :)

[poulpox]

Sounds like a good interpretation :)

[Dolomyte]

my issue is it not clearly stating when it ends, i think we all agree you forfeit the activation (not clear on if that occurs when the turn end happens, or if you can choose to activate the model and have it happen immediately (allowing obey)) and then it goes away.

Also, if you get paralyzed in your activation, when do the secondary effects (no melee range, no actions, no falling back, etc) end? end of turn, start of next activation.

Rules manual blows.

[Hookers]

I think its pretty awesome. though i'll give you that paralyzed could've been made more clear.


i'm not sure if they intended to change how it works or not, because i remember it being pretty clear to begin with. if they did not intend to change it then it works exactly as how MrNybbles described it.


however, if they did intend to change it, then my reading of this rule would be as follows:

-if you are paralyzed during your activation you lose your remaining AP and end your activation.

-if you are paralyzed outside of your activation, you lose(forfeit) your next activation. you do not activate the model in order to "remove" paralyzed, you simple do not activate that model at all the next time it would be able to go (if it has yet to go this turn then it would simply not go this turn, if it has already gone this turn then it would not activate next turn). that is what the term forfeit suggests to me.


-the effects would be handled the same regardless of when and how you got paralyzed and would end at the start closing phase because they do not name an ending. so either way it can't take actions, use triggers, stop disengaging models, etc. until the start closing phase of the turn they were paralyzed in, even if they still will forfeit an activation on the next turn



that's my interpretation of the RAW.


however its also entirely possible that the only thing they intended to change were models who received paralyze during their activation, as with the old wording they would essentially be paralyzed twice. in that case it would also work the way MrNybbles described.

[Keltheos]

Paralyze ends once its effects have been applied. So, if the model receives it during an activation it ends once it loses its remaining AP and the activation is over. If it receives it outside of an activation it ends as soon as the model's next activation has been forfeit.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

:withstupi

[MrNybbles]

Paralyze ends once its effects have been applied. So, if the model receives it during an activation it ends once it loses its remaining AP and the activation is over. If it receives it outside of an activation it ends as soon as the model's next activation has been forfeit.

This doesn't really tell us anything because we are trying to figure out how the forfeit mechanic works.

Do you choose to activate the paralyzed model, but instead of activating it forfeits the activation causing Paralyze to end?

Do you simply not choose to activate it for one turn of the encounter which is how you forfeit the activation?



-if you are paralyzed outside of your activation, you lose(forfeit) your next activation. you do not activate the model in order to "remove" paralyzed, you simple do not activate that model at all the next time it would be able to go (if it has yet to go this turn then it would simply not go this turn, if it has already gone this turn then it would not activate next turn). that is what the term forfeit suggests to me.


Hookers post makes a functional and logical enough interpretation that it complies with what Keltheos has posted.

[Ratty]

outside of an activation it ends as soon as the model's next activation has been forfeit.

With this wording it suggests you need to take an activation and then that activation become forfeit so doesn't happen. I still think it activates in the normal turn sequence. Otherwise If a model activates early on in a turn and then get's Paralysed it will be under of the effects of Paralyse for almost 2 total turns.

To back up this belief look at the bit at the end saying it rallies normally. If it wasn't acting in the normal turn sequence it couldn't do this.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

This doesn't really tell us anything because we are trying to figure out how the forfeit mechanic works.
There is no such thing as a "forfeit mechanic" and you are reading WAY too much into things to come up with that.


Do you choose to activate the paralyzed model, but instead of activating it forfeits the activation causing Paralyze to end?
Yes.


Do you simply not choose to activate it for one turn of the encounter which is how you forfeit the activation?
No.

[poulpox]

So does this mean that when a paralysed model activates it still suffers poison Wds as it forfeits its activation?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

So does this mean that when a paralysed model activates it still suffers poison Wds as it forfeits its activation?
No.

Since a model has to "Begin" and activation to suffer the Poison, the PAralyzed model is "Nominated" but doesn't receive an Activation. Poison will stay until the model Activates properly.

[LoboStele]

From a fluff standpoint, I always thought it was a bit weird that things like Poison wouldn't take affect if you were paralyzed. Of course, rules don't always follow fluff though.

Honestly though, outside of the Chompy/Coppelius combo, how many times have you really seen somebody get both Poison and Paraylzed?

EDIT: Typing while Sketch was typing. :P That explanation definitely makes sense though. Thanks!

[ProdigalPunk]

Not sure if the Marshalls will come back now that the question is answered, but it seems like it works exactly like before except now things like poison do not effect the model (and I guess anything else, like the Librarian would not have to discard a card, or even be allowed to I guess). I assume this was the intent of the rules change? Seems reasonable enough.

[JustAnotherDummy]

Honestly though, outside of the Chompy/Coppelius combo, how many times have you really seen somebody get both Poison and Paraylzed?

Two Performers can tag-team to do it.

[MrNybbles]

There is no such thing as a "forfeit mechanic" and you are reading WAY too much into things to come up with that.
Incorrect, I'm not reading way too much into things. I referred to it as a mechanic to draw your attention to it (because that is what the conflict is over) and because I had no idea what else to call call it. The stuff about "nominating" to activate a paralyzed model is not in the new rules which is sorta why there is confusion about forfeiting an activation.


Thank you Sketch for answering the question and resolving this conflict over the rules.

[ProdigalPunk]

Right, I the issue is that there is no context for what forfeiting an activation means. Now that you have explained it it is very clear, and I think everyone is on the same page, but until then it was unclear if forfeiting an activation meant forfeiting the nomination all together or still nominating and forfeiting all the actions. Forfeiting actions is much easier to understand I think, since it seems, at least a much more tangible thing. But like I said, now that you explained it, I think it is pretty clear.

[Hookers]

Hookers post makes a functional and logical enough interpretation that it complies with what Keltheos has posted.

I was only offering my interpretation IF they intended to change how paralyze works, which I was unsure if they did or not.


So it works the same as before with the exception of being (way) less heinous to models who receive paralyze during their activation.

[Adran]

Two Performers can tag-team to do it.
1 performer can do it as long as the model is within its walk + 1 inch.

[poulpox]

No.

Since a model has to "Begin" and activation to suffer the Poison, the PAralyzed model is "Nominated" but doesn't receive an Activation. Poison will stay until the model Activates properly.


Thanks!

[Keltheos]

Fluffwise it may not make sense, but we'll go with since it may be a magical paralysis it also halts the flow of poison through the target's veins for a time. ;)

[CannonFodder]

Fluffwise it may not make sense, but we'll go with since it may be a magical paralysis it also halts the flow of poison through the target's veins for a time. ;)

I find this a little weird. if a model is paralyzed the poison does not take effect (I disagree with this but lets leave that for now). Does the poison still count down at the start of each turn? If it magical paralyzed the target the poison should also be paralyzed.

If so the performer just lost 80% of its damage potential.

Personally I thought paralyzed was like slow, you got the activation. But penalized so you had 0 actions (uncluding (0) actions ) and no melee range.

[Keltheos]

Poison Tokens are removed at the start of a model's activation. Since the model isn't getting an activation nothing is removed so they sit there.