Spirit disengaging through a solid object

[Buhallin]

If a spirit moves away from another model it is currently in melee with, and passes through something that would block an attack (wall, into a building, etc) before actually leaving the other model's melee range, what happens?

[Hookers]

the model needs los to make a disengaging strike, so it looks like the spirit is away scott free

[MrNybbles]

the model needs los to make a disengaging strike, so it looks like the spirit is away scott free

There are very few exceptions to this, one of which is Lilith who ignores terrain when drawing line of sight.


Master of Malifaux: This model ignores hazardous, severe, and water terrain effects when moving. This model ignores terrain when drawing LoS.

[ProdigalPunk]

Doesn't the model make the disengaging strike before the model even moves? If not, then where is the distinction made?

[MrNybbles]

Doesn't the model make the disengaging strike before the model even moves? If not, then where is the distinction made?

No, only when the active model takes a movement action (walk, charge, or jump) and leaves an enemy model's longest melee range does an enemy model get to make a disengaging strike.

For example, you can freely move your model within one enemy model's melee range to get within melee range of an enemy model you wish to attack.

Malifaux: Rules Manual (Combat, p.48)

Disengaging
Models cannot simply move past enemy models without risking an attack. To represent this, the moment a moving enemy model would leave a model's longest melee range, that model may interrupt the enemy's move and attempt to block it by making one melee Strike, called a diesengaging Strike, targeting that enemy model. No Triggers may be declared by he blocking or moving model during this Strike.
. . .

That last sentence is a big change from the old rules for those who run a crew with Colette.

[ProdigalPunk]

Even more so Lady J

[Csonti]

I don't have my book at hand so the wording maybe say different but I think the melee range should end at the point the model can hit (ie has LoS) with that weapon. Say you have 2 models with reach 2" at the opposite end of an 1" wide Ht5 wall and none of them can attack through the wall. Are they in melee? Logically they are not but maybe this is another wyrd loophole.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I don't have my book at hand so the wording maybe say different but I think the melee range should end at the point the model can hit (ie has LoS) with that weapon. Say you have 2 models with reach 2" at the opposite end of an 1" wide Ht5 wall and none of them can attack through the wall. Are they in melee? Logically they are not but maybe this is another wyrd loophole.

Not, being in combat requires LOS, (or so i believe)

[Nimh]

I think its kinda cool that a model try's to make a disengaging strike against a spirit and misses cause it vanishes through a wall. Thats just how I picture it in my head though. Has nothing to do with official rules.

[karn987]

Disengage normally kicks in when you leave the melee range of a models longest range melee weapon. So since the effective range would stop at the wall (or impassible terrain piece they can not draw LoS through and thus not make attacks through) RAI to me point to you making the Disengaging Strike.

When you fade through the wall you are leaving their effective melee range as it stops at the wall. So the moment you would leave it, they make the strike at you. So I don't think this works, but it is a bit iffy on the wording.

Common Sense to me dictates that if you leave melee by getting out of a models LoS (while still being in the range listed) you are out of melee and would thus be disengaging. It could be walking around a bigger model, a wall, going through a wall, etc.

[Buhallin]

So since the effective range would stop at the wall (or impassible terrain piece they can not draw LoS through and thus not make attacks through) RAW and RAI to me point to you making the Disengaging Strike.

When you fade through the wall you are leaving their effective melee range as it stops at the wall.
All sounds good, but... Can you find 'effective melee range' for me as a rules concept?

You require LOS in order to make a strike, but it doesn't modify your melee range in any way. And since disengaging strikes explicitly occur when you leave melee range...

[karn987]

All sounds good, but... Can you find 'effective melee range' for me as a rules concept?

You require LOS in order to make a strike, but it doesn't modify your melee range in any way. And since disengaging strikes explicitly occur when you leave melee range...

Yeah I understand and I don't have the old rule book on me, but I believe it worked this way in the old rules to. If you leave LoS you are leaving melee and thus incur disengaging strikes.

But at the same time, if you wish to read it the way you are saying you are still engaged on the other side of the wall and count as being in melee. Take a look at the Engaging rules. That doesn't really make sense does it? Something is missing.

I think this is all a wording Snafu and the bit about LoS was missed.

[MrNybbles]

@ Csonti & karn987: Interesting idea. Offhand the only thing I know of reguarding a weapon's melee range is the Rg stat. This will be something I'll be looking for when I get back home tonight.

One drawback to stopping a spirit is a wall is physically placing the spirit in the wall. (I know, just place the model next to the wall as close as possible or on top of the wall).

TODO: Check if spirits can stop inside terrain.

[Talishko]

Disengage normally kicks in when you leave the melee range of a models longest range melee weapon. So since the effective range would stop at the wall (or impassible terrain piece they can not draw LoS through and thus not make attacks through) RAI to me point to you making the Disengaging Strike.

When you fade through the wall you are leaving their effective melee range as it stops at the wall. So the moment you would leave it, they make the strike at you. So I don't think this works, but it is a bit iffy on the wording.

Common Sense to me dictates that if you leave melee by getting out of a models LoS (while still being in the range listed) you are out of melee and would thus be disengaging. It could be walking around a bigger model, a wall, going through a wall, etc.

Exactly what I was thinking... Yo can shout raw to everything but common sense suggests the melee range ends at the wall. Imho the same stands for your case, Csonti. Blocking terrain cuts your range short hence being called blocking.


@ Csonti & karn987: Interesting idea. Offhand the only thing I know of reguarding a weapon's melee range is the Rg stat. This will be something I'll be looking for when I get back home tonight.

One drawback to stopping a spirit is a wall is physically placing the spirit in the wall. (I know, just place the model next to the wall as close as possible or on top of the wall).

TODO: Check if spirits can stop inside terrain.

no, spirits can stop on inpassable terrain (not inside it). If you want to stop on top of the wall, you still have to go the ht distance (as if climbing).

[ProdigalPunk]

I would assume that the melee range is the range listed on the card, and does not change, although I do not have a source to back this up. It seems like the model would still be in range just no longer a legal target. Which are different things. I am not even sure what the RaI would be here, and I don't think you can just apply common sense to it.

[Buhallin]

Exactly what I was thinking... Yo can shout raw to everything but common sense suggests the melee range ends at the wall. Imho the same stands for your case, Csonti. Blocking terrain cuts your range short hence being called blocking.
Blocking terrain blocks LOS - nothing more, nothing less.

There's nothing in any of the rule books requiring LOS to be engaged, and there's nothing that reduces a model's melee range based on LOS. Strikes require LOS. That's pretty much it.

The problem with trying to apply common sense (which is rarely common) or intent is the same as it always is - what's the intent? You obviously think the intent is that models should always get a disengaging strike. Someone else might think that a shot hitting a wall as a spirit slips through it or a sword cutting into the corner as someone ducks around it to escape makes for a very cinematic scene, and THAT'S the intent. We don't know, so people fill in "intent" themselves. That's why I'm pretty sure RAI actually stands for "Rules As Iwantthemtobeplayed." If it doesn't, it should, because that's what it usually means.

[Hookers]

You require LOS in order to make a strike, but it doesn't modify your melee range in any way. And since disengaging strikes explicitly occur when you leave melee range...

and boom goes the dynamite


i'll add one more level to it by pulling up the index on my trusty rule's manual and finding disengaging on pg 48 and saying that:

disengaging strikes are strikes that are made the "moment an enemy model would leave a model's longest melee range"


if that range is an inch and you are adjacent to a tall enough wall to block LoS then you can't make the strike at the point when the spirit is leaving the your longest melee range

[Keltheos]

We're discussing this. And yes, a reply will be coming in the very near future.

[MrNybbles]

Exactly what I was thinking... Yo can shout raw to everything but common sense suggests the melee range ends at the wall. Imho the same stands for your case, Csonti. Blocking terrain cuts your range short hence being called blocking.

. . .

no, spirits can stop on inpassable terrain (not inside it). If you want to stop on top of the wall, you still have to go the ht distance (as if climbing).
Let's assume the following things are true.
1) Melee range ends at the wall.
2) Spirits may not end their movement inside a wall.

This creates the issue of a spirit moving through a wall is hit by a disengaging Strike and then ends its action inside the wall.

This is kinda why I wanted to take a closer look at the new rules.

Also, from the old Malifaux FAQ:

Q: Can a Spirit end its movement in impassible terrain?
A: Yes (p.21).

The old wording for the Spirit characteristic said ". . .that can move over terrain and through other models without penalty. . . ."

We basically have the same situation with the new rules which also don't specifically say a Spirit can or can not end its movement inside impassable terrain.

[tenabrae]

It's worth noting the spirit description in the rules manual no longer states you can move through terrain, it says you mass pass over or stop on top of it.

[MrNybbles]

It's worth noting the spirit description in the rules manual no longer states you can move through terrain, it says you mass pass over or stop on top of it.

Malifaux: Book 1 (p.21)

Spirit: Spirits are non-living, no-corporeal entities that can move over terrain and through other models without penalty. Spirits ignore Morale Duels and receive half damage from non-magical sources. When the are killed, Spirits do not leave counters of any type.

No longer? As far as I can tell the rules NEVER said you can move through terrain. Only the old FAQ said you could end your movement in impassable terrain.

[tenabrae]

Not sure what you're getting at... the Book 1 FAQ said they could, the rules no longer say you can.

[Buhallin]

What he's saying is that the wording of the actual rule hasn't changed from Book 1 to the Rules Manual. With no change in the rules, there doesn't seem to be anything that invalidates the FAQ entry.

[ProdigalPunk]

I think the problem with that wording is it does not say anything different then the actual rules. I don't have the new rule book, so I could be missing something, but all models are allowed to go over terrain. I guess impassible is implied, but other then that, a model must climb over it but it is still allowed to move over the wall for example if it so chooses. I am not trying to argue what the rule means, I am just pointing out what the rule seems to say. Again it might be worded differently in the new book, but in book 1 it did not really say anything that was not already a general rule.

[MrNybbles]

Not sure what you're getting at... the Book 1 FAQ said they could, the rules no longer say you can.

No it didn't. I even copied the relevant part of the rules for the Spirit characteristic out of my copy of Book 1 so everyone can read what is written.


What he's saying is that the wording of the actual rule hasn't changed from Book 1 to the Rules Manual. With no change in the rules, there doesn't seem to be anything that invalidates the FAQ entry.

Regarding being able to stop inside impassable terrain, yes, nothing has changed.

Looking at the two rules the only significant changes that I see spelled out are that Spirits will now suffer movement penalties. (The new rules lack anything about moving over terrain without penalty). They may also explicitly stop on impassable terrain now as well (instead of move through terrain without penalty), though this is different enough from stopping inside impassable terrain that it causes confusion.

Note: Some Spirits also have either the Float or Fly characteristic which ignore movement penalties.

Here's the unabridged old and new rules for the Spirit characteristic.

Malifaux: Book 1 (p.21)

Spirit: Spirits are non-living, non-corporeal entities that can move over terrain and through other models without penalty. Spirits ignore Morale Duels and receive half damage from non-magical sources. When they are killed, Spirits do not leave counters of any kind.

The errata added "Spirits do not block LoS." and changed "ignore" to "are immune to."

The Malifaux FAQ which I quoted in an earlier post was the only thing that actually said they may end its movement inside impassable terrain. To me the new Rules Manual is a cosmic reset so they might not rule the same way they did in the past.

Malifaux: Ruels Manual (The Basics, p.10)

Spirit: Models with the Spirit Characteristic are non-living models that can move through other models and do not block LoS. Spirits can move over and stop on impassable terrain. Spirits are immune to Morale Duels and suffer half damage from non-magical sources. When they are killed, Spirits do not leave Counters of any type.

@ ProdigalPunk's last post: Agreed. I'm sure Wyrd put a lot of effort into the wording and making sure it says what they want it to say, but when you proof read something that you wrote and you already know what the intended meaning of what is written should be, so you won't interpret it differently than you had intended. Then suddenly we all read it and start asking questions, then chaos ensues.

[tenabrae]

No it didn't. I even copied the relevant part of the rules for the Spirit characteristic out of my copy of Book 1 so everyone can read what is written.
Sure it does, you even referenced it in your initial post.



Q: Can a Spirit end its movement in impassible terrain?
A: Yes (p.21).


Since the rules have been revised and they chose not to add that clarification to the rule itself indicates it isn't there any more to me. The whole idea is to stop people parking models in terrain.

--

Which doesn't invalidate this topic, it could still happen through a model (for what it's worth I asked the same question a few months ago but it was around the time the rules manual was being announced and fell off the radar).

[MrNybbles]

Sure it does, you even referenced it in your initial post.
Ah, I see now. You consider the FAQ to also be rules. By definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/FAQ) FAQs are literary lists of Frequently Asked Questions with answers so I don't consider them rules.

Even though the Malifaux FAQ was written by the same authority as the rules I still don't consider the FAQ to be actual rules but a FAQ which clarifies what the rules say.

Under the original rules (not including the FAQ) I would have never thought the rules allowed a model to stop inside impassable terrain. Then the FAQ came along. . .

The new Rules Manual introduces a cosmic reset to the rules which again I would never think allows a model to stop inside impassable terrain just by reading the rules. However, I'm happy enough to use whatever the Rules Marshals say it means.


If Spirits can't stop inside impassable terrain any more then Lilith can't take Primordial Magic which can be moved into impassable terrain and use Transposition to move a non-Spirit enemy model and stick them inside of something.

[CrouchingMoose]

You shouldn't be able to do that anyway. To be inside impassable terrain would mean that LoS should be blocked and lilith shouldn't be able to select the primodrial magic as a target for transposition.

Its not like spirits being able to stop in terrain gives them a huge advantage...they wouldn't be able to draw line of sight out. This ability could only be used in a defensive manner.

Plus the new rules set doesn't seem like a cosmic rules reset like you think. The way it was introduced made it seem like it was a smaller, less fluffy, v2 rulebook with images to increase clarification. There was noting about it to make it seem like old FAQs should be thrown out the window (espically if wyrd is still supporting those faqs)

[MrNybbles]

V2 Lilith

Master of Malifaux: This model ignores hazardous, severe, and water terrain effects when moving. This model ignores terrain when drawing LoS.


You shouldn't be able to do that anyway. To be inside impassable terrain would mean that LoS should be blocked and lilith shouldn't be able to select the primodrial magic as a target for transposition.
Yes, you can (assuming that a Spirit could be inside terrain) because Lillith ignores terrain when drawing Line of Sight.


Its not like spirits being able to stop in terrain gives them a huge advantage...they wouldn't be able to draw line of sight out. This ability could only be used in a defensive manner.
Most people don't send Primordial Magic into combat and keep it for the Arcane Reservoir. It also works for when Lilith casts Transposition. Also, if inside impassable terrain near an objective or any location near enemy forces casting Alluring and Earthquake are just as effective.

I'm not sure all those tricks still work under the new rules.


Plus the new rules set doesn't seem like a cosmic rules reset like you think. The way it was introduced made it seem like it was a smaller, less fluffy, v2 rulebook with images to increase clarification. There was noting about it to make it seem like old FAQs should be thrown out the window (espically if wyrd is still supporting those faqs)

From reading Eric Johns's introduction I'd say it is a cosmic reset because he mentions saving us from needing to go between the rulebook, FAQ, and errata so I think we are intended to throw the old rulebook rules, FAQ, errata, and the baby out with the bathwater.

Malifaux: Rules Manual (Intro, p.2)

Designer's Note
Have you ever played that game .. you know .. the one where there were great rules, but a bunch of those rules got changed? Sure they were good changes, but it left you flipping back and forth trying to find the most recent rule, Or just the most relevant rule.

Well, Malifaux was starting to become that game. But we weren't going to let you sit and do all that looking around between the books and the FAQ and the errata and your jotted notes from the house rules your friends decided on. We decided to fix it and put it all together into one complete package. . . .

To be clear I'm not trying to argue that the rules should be one way or another. Due to how Wyrd interpreted the rules in the old FAQ makes me question if they will interpret it the same way now, even though they still don't spell out being able to stop in terrain is allowed in the rules. I'm not betting money on this one.

Whatever the Rules Marshals rule I'll be happy with.

[CrouchingMoose]

Srry...I don't play lilith so I didn't know about the master of malifaux thing.

As for your quoting of erics description of the new rules manual, I can see how one might think that it is a full reset, but it is also just as valid an idea that it is nothing more than wyrd reprinting the original rules with all errata added in. But while this topic is of great intrest to me, it is way off the original topic of spirits disengaging through terrain (I know that keltheros said they were discussing the answer as we sit here an bicker amongest ourselves, eagerly awaiting an answer).

So in the spirit of trying to move slowly back torwards the original topic and arguing about how the rules should be interpretted before a RM gives an answer, what would happen if an non spirit model was transpositioned into impassable terrain. Would it just die or would it merely be stuck there unable to draw line of sight on anything.

[MrNybbles]

So in the spirit of trying to move slowly back torwards the original topic and arguing about how the rules should be interpretted before a RM gives an answer, what would happen if an non spirit model was transpositioned into impassable terrain. Would it just die or would it merely be stuck there unable to draw line of sight on anything.

I think I'm going to enjoy answering this question. Assuming it is legal for the Spirit to end its move inside Impassable terrain. . .

Picture your opponent with Lilith and her Primordial Magic hiding inside a block of Impassable carbonite. Lilith then casts transposition on both her Primordial Magic and your Han Solo, both failing to resist he spell.

There are no rules which instantly kill Han Solo so he remains alive inside the block of Impassable carbonite. As for LoS the normal rules would apply. Because Impassable terrain always has the blocking trait, his LoS is blocked so he only has LoS to himself (The Basics, p.15).

If Han Solo is only partly inside the block of carbonite (say just his hand or the edge of his base) then he can not walk out of the block of Impassable carbonite because that would require moving through Impassable terrain.

Rules Manual (Terrain & Traits, p59)

Impassable
Terrain that models cannot move through. . . Effect: Models cannot move into or through impassable terrain. Impassable terrain also has the blocking trait.

[Buhallin]

Not 100% sure, but I think you can't Transposition a model into terrain it can't normally enter. Since the model wouldn't have any ability to ignore the impassable terrain, trying to do so would violate the "must be able to fit" requirement.

On the "cosmic reset": I disagree with that, at least as far as the FAQ is concerned. FAQ entries are clarifications - the FAQ tells us whether "must" or "may" takes precedence; is that not accurate because of the "cosmic reset"?

Obviously some won't apply, but I think the wording here is close enough that the FAQ still clarifies it, and thus is still applicable. I think "over" is the key word, and based on the generally 2D nature of Malifaux's approach to terrain, works as "through". The FAQ backs this up, and there really doesn't seem to be anything in the new rules that would invalidate that... Once you flatten the terrain down to 2D, stopping "on" and "in" is pretty much the same thing.

They may have intended to change it to remove something spirits could clearly do before, but it seems a very ambiguous way to go around it.

[MrNybbles]

Not 100% sure, but I think you can't Transposition a model into terrain it can't normally enter. Since the model wouldn't have any ability to ignore the impassable terrain, trying to do so would violate the "must be able to fit" requirement.
Okay, let's check.

V2 Lilith

Transposition: Target 2 models when casting this spell. If both models fail in resisting the spell, Switch the 2 target models. Okay, Transposition has no restrictions such restrictions. Let's take a look at the Switch keyword which is used in Lilith's Transposition spell.

Rules Manual (Combat, p.38)

The Switch placement effect requires multiple models to exchange locations. When Switching models, each model is relocated to the other model's position and must cover as much of the other model's base area as possible. When a model Switches locations, effects limiting the distance it may move end immediately end. Interesting, there is no "must be able to fit" restriction like with Place. So far it appears to check out. I'm actually a bit surprised that Transposition doesn't have any sort of restrictions on it. I think it was worth checking against the rules.


On the "cosmic reset": I disagree with that, at least as far as the FAQ is concerned. FAQ entries are clarifications - the FAQ tells us whether "must" or "may" takes precedence; is that not accurate because of the "cosmic reset"?

Yes, exactly. The FAQ is no longer needed because because the post-"cosmic reset" Rules Manual now has what the FAQ covered. Supposedly everything that was in the FAQ that was kept is in the new Rules Manual in one form or another.

Basically Nathan put the FAQ into a BlendTec blender with the old rulebooks and the errata just before Eric hit the New Rules Manual Puree button, just like Tom Dickson did with his Facebook (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lQ1Pz_O-j0). The "must" over "may" is a perfect example of this.

Rules Manual (Intro, p.6)

Timing
. . .
* Effects that must occur will occur before effects that may occur.
. . .



I think "over" is the key word, and based on the generally 2D nature of Malifaux's approach to terrain, works as "through". The FAQ backs this up, and there really doesn't seem to be anything in the new rules that would invalidate that... Once you flatten the terrain down to 2D, stopping "on" and "in" is pretty much the same thing.This is more or less my view of how the game works as well as many of the people I have played against. There is also the new LoS and Elevations rules that are new in the Rules Manual.


They may have intended to change it to remove something spirits could clearly do before, but it seems a very ambiguous way to go around it.This is exactly what I'm concerned about.

[Ratty]

Basically Nathan put the FAQ into a BlendTec blender with the old rulebooks and the errata just before Eric hit the New Rules Manual Puree button, just like Tom Dickson did with his Facebook (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lQ1Pz_O-j0). The "must" over "may" is a perfect example of this.
.

That's not entirely true actually. I've already cleared up that what the FAQ says about moving through opponents spirits is still true and that's not covered in the main rules. I don't think you can take the FAQ as still being in effect however a lot of the things it discussed haven't entirely changed especially where spirits are concerned, and I'm sure they will be coming back when not entirely clear in the rulebook.

[Buhallin]

Interesting, there is no "must be able to fit" restriction like with Place. So far it appears to check out. I'm actually a bit surprised that Transposition doesn't have any sort of restrictions on it. I think it was worth checking against the rules.
Hrm. I didn't bother to dig it up, but I'd assume Switch has to have the same restrictions as Place. Otherwise swapping two models of different base sizes gets ugly very fast. It's clearly a gap which would need Marshal input to close, but for simple sanity of play assuming Switch requires Placing seems the simplest option.

The FAQ is no longer needed because because the post-"cosmic reset" Rules Manual now has what the FAQ covered. Supposedly everything that was in the FAQ that was kept is in the new Rules Manual in one form or another.
I doubt this is actually the case. May elements of the FAQ are clarifications - some of them may have made it into the actual rules, but many may not have been necessary. Must/May obviously wasn't a good example, it was late, but Ratty's already provided us an example, and I assume a pass through could locate others easily enough.

If a new rule contradicts the FAQ, the rule obviously takes precedence. If an FAQ entry made it into the rules, that's fine too. But there really isn't any indication that every answer of the FAQ - most of which elaborate and clarify the rules to provide our foundational understanding - is instantly invalid because of the RM.

[CrouchingMoose]

I don't argee with switch and place necessarily being treated the same, but I do agree that it can get messy fast... I also don't believe that if you can transposition a model into impassable terrain that it necessarily prevents him from ever moving again...he just can't move until he breaks free...now if you transposition them into a terrain peice that is not breakable and is impassable, then they are in a bind.

But tricks like switching a 50mm into a space that only a 30mm could get into, chances are the 50mm is just going to have to waste time breaking out.

[Buhallin]

I realize we're going off on a tangent here, but what would you do if you had a 30mm model surrounded by 3 other models in base contact, and Transposition'ed it with a 50mm base model?

[CrouchingMoose]

True I didn't think about something like that... I would assume that if such a trick was possible the all of the 30mms would be pushed out around the the 50mm...but this could lead to some horrible tricks like pushing off the board.

[Ironburn]

"Place" says that there must be room for the model to fit. Don't know if that applies to "Switch" though.

[MrNybbles]

Okay, I missed this earlier. The description of Placement effects (which Place and Switch both are) states "A model's base must be placed where it can fit, . . ." For some reason this is repeated in the description of Place, but not Switch. This makes things much more sane.

[Buhallin]

Glad it's there. They do that in a few places - we ran into the same sort of thing with cheating for healing flips and damage prevention flips. Healing flips says you can't, damage prevention doesn't list the same restriction. You still can't - the rules for cheating specify when you can do so, and damage prevention isn't one of them - but having it reiterated in one but not the other can be a tad confusing.

Glad it's in there, though :)

[Keltheos]

Ruling incoming:
A model can block a model it is engaged with when that model moves out of its longest melee range and/or its LoS.

Soo...
A Spirit moving through a wall would be susceptible to a disengaging Strike just before it moved out of LoS.
A guy moving around the corner of a wall would get the same treatment.
Likewise a model moving where an intervening model breaks LoS but not melee range.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/Keltheos/yul.jpg

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

+1

[Buhallin]

Likewise a model moving where an intervening model breaks LoS but not melee range.
Hadn't thought about that one.

I liked the cinematic/tactical potential to avoid the disengaging strikes, but I can understand the reasoning. Thanks for the response!

[Dark Alleycat]

Wait...a intervening model can disrupt LOS? does that only count enemy models or friendly models as well? meaning could you shield one of your models by having another model standing between it and whoever was targetting it?

sorry to offtopic but I wanted to understand what you meant by:
Likewise a model moving where an intervening model breaks LoS but not melee range.

[MrNybbles]

Ruling incoming:
A model can block a model it is engaged with when that model moves out of its longest melee range and/or its LoS.

Soo...
A Spirit moving through a wall would be susceptible to a disengaging Strike just before it moved out of LoS.
A guy moving around the corner of a wall would get the same treatment.
Likewise a model moving where an intervening model breaks LoS but not melee range.


Interesting. This implicitly means that Spirits can end their movement inside impassable terrain as well as end their moves on impassable terrain. This actually answers two questions in one!

Um, will this be added to the extra errata for easy reference?

Thanks guys!


Wait...a intervening model can disrupt LOS? does that only count enemy models or friendly models as well?
Rules Manual (The Basics, p.15)

Blocking Trait
* If all the lines drawn by the model cross any portion of an intervening base with the blocking trait and that base's Ht is equal to or greater than both the model's or target's Ht, then the model's LoS to the target id blocked.
. . .
* All non-Spirit models have the blocking trait, but do not provide cover.

Friendly models may also block LoS.

[Wodschow]

Wait...a intervening model can disrupt LOS? does that only count enemy models or friendly models as well? meaning could you shield one of your models by having another model standing between it and whoever was targetting it?

sorry to offtopic but I wanted to understand what you meant by:
Likewise a model moving where an intervening model breaks LoS but not melee range.

Page 15 of the Manual:

"All non-spirit models have the blocking trait."

(Which means they block LoS)

[Keltheos]

Wasn't implying anything about a model ending its movement inside impassible terrain in the above.

[Keltheos]

Alleycat,

Yes, models (friendly and otherwise) block LoS. They don't provide cover, however.

[MrNybbles]

Wasn't implying anything about a model ending its movement inside impassible terrain in the above.

??? Checking.
Okay, they may move over and on top of impassable terrain, but not through it so they can't move through a wall in an indoor location now. Okay.

[Ratty]

Wasn't implying anything about a model ending its movement inside impassible terrain in the above.

Kel, if you can block a spirit that is disengaging through a wall as it leaves LOS that means that it will end up stopping more or less entirely in the wall. So can it end there or does it bounce back out of the wall.

[Keltheos]

Ok, will clarify that. Don't want people assuming they can play the "hide the spirit in the hillside" game though.

[Buhallin]

Ok, will clarify that. Don't want people assuming they can play the "hide the spirit in the hillside" game though.
I think that answers your question, which was why I linked it :P

You cannot stop inside impassable terrain.

[korto]

Damn I red through 6 pages, not finding any official answer and ended up with a "will clarify this" ! I'll take the Don't want people assuming they can play the "hide the spirit in the hillside"for the answer you were refering me to. Thanks !

[Keltheos]

Ruling for Spirits
When a disengaging Spirit is blocked successfully it must be legally located in such a way that it remains both within LoS of the model that blocked it AND in that model's melee range. This may mean the Spirit must move back to where it started.

Clarification
Spirits can still move through terrain. The term 'over' in the rules indicates 'over' the terrain base (all terrain has bases now, remember?), rather than them 'hopping over the wall'. There is no movement penalty for them moving over (through in your reading) wallls, etc.

Spirits can stop their movement 'on' impassible terrain (i.e. they can hover over the pit of nasty broken glass unlike other models. Spirits cannot, however, end their movement so they are sitting 'within' something with the impassible trait. They cannot hide themselves in hills, etc.