Starting with Pandora...

[McDoogle]

I am starting a Pandora crew for a number of reasons which include:

1)My opponents all own/are in the process of owning 2 crews for heir preferred faction, and I would like to do the same, for tactical and variety reasons.
2)She looks like a completely different gaming experience from Lilith
3)Its an excuse to buy a baby cade and mini-weirdsketch
4)My new years res is to save for a house, so this will be my last new crew for a while (CONTINUING other crews is not the same thing, so I may buy zoroida as well so I can bypass the misuss' rules and only "continue" this crew.

In short, for starters I have bought a teddy, a doppleganger, LofS boxed set and a poltetgeist, and also have access to all my Lilith/Neph models. These are my initial thoughts:

Pandora-Cache 6
Baby Cade 6ss
3 sorrows 9ss
Poltergeist 2ss
Teddy 9ss
Another sorrow, or (a terror tot) 3ss

General idea- keep Pandora at back, probs in base contact with 4th sorrow, and use her WP abilities to drain wounds, which sorrows finish off. Poltergeist is there to cast 1 of her spells etc (although could include another sorrow, but this seems a bit boring/predictable) while cade and teddy are the obvious muscle (or subtle brutality....!) Sorrow are their to link and finish off stuff Pandora has wounded.

I realise none of these ideas are original, and arent supposed to be, but are more of a "I have my 1st game with a crew described as 1 of the hardest 2 use....am I heading in the right direction?"!!!!

[Tweak]

Your crew is a good start. A couple of things you might want to consider:
-I have found a primordial magic better than the poltergeist
-I have found pandora's crew is one that all needs to work in conjunction with each other. Basically Pandora in my experience is more of a mid line master than a back line master
-You should consider trying to fit in Candy if you can. The healing and speed she brings to pandora is quite nice.

[Slinkdawg]

I'm in the process of learning the ropes with Pandora as well. Karn put together a really helpful tactica doc for her, if you have not gotten on the mailing list yet we can post the link for that thread.

I have run her with mostly the starter box and sometimes a teddy so far. Candy has always been worth her points, the healing and the extra casting of self loathing are invaluable.

The doppelganger is on the painting bench, but I've heard great things about her.

In general, Pandora's crew is very deceptive in how much damage they do. People will be faced with willpower duels and may not bother to cheat or soulstone to avoid taking 1 pt of damage, but those damage points can add up quick.

Depending on the strategy, your opponent may be better off avoiding your crew and accomplishing the scenario. I played against her the other day with the vikis and had supply wagon. If the vikis had focused just on destroying the supply wagon they might have pulled off the win, but I made the noob mistake of trying to kill pandora or the kids. The lesson: get in your opponents face and make him fight your crew in Pandora's 12" bubble, and it will hurt. Worry about the scenario and how your death of a thousand cuts crew is going to get in their way and stop them. (Disclaimer - keep pandora a little bit back and with a sorrow or candy in b2b for martyr... and some soulstones)

[McDoogle]

Your crew is a good start. A couple of things you might want to consider:
-I have found a primordial magic better than the poltergeist
-I have found pandora's crew is one that all needs to work in conjunction with each other. Basically Pandora in my experience is more of a mid line master than a back line master
-You should consider trying to fit in Candy if you can. The healing and speed she brings to pandora is quite nice.

I will have a look at her again- i preferred cade and madnesses' at 1st glance- why no you rate her so much, out of interest?

[McDoogle]

I'm in the process of learning the ropes with Pandora as well. Karn put together a really helpful tactica doc for her, if you have not gotten on the mailing list yet we can post the link for that thread.

I have run her with mostly the starter box and sometimes a teddy so far. Candy has always been worth her points, the healing and the extra casting of self loathing are invaluable.

The doppelganger is on the painting bench, but I've heard great things about her.

In general, Pandora's crew is very deceptive in how much damage they do. People will be faced with willpower duels and may not bother to cheat or soulstone to avoid taking 1 pt of damage, but those damage points can add up quick.

Depending on the strategy, your opponent may be better off avoiding your crew and accomplishing the scenario. I played against her the other day with the vikis and had supply wagon. If the vikis had focused just on destroying the supply wagon they might have pulled off the win, but I made the noob mistake of trying to kill pandora or the kids. The lesson: get in your opponents face and make him fight your crew in Pandora's 12" bubble, and it will hurt. Worry about the scenario and how your death of a thousand cuts crew is going to get in their way and stop them. (Disclaimer - keep pandora a little bit back and with a sorrow or candy in b2b for martyr... and some soulstones)

Clcl, thanks for the info. Again, Candy has alot of neg press, yet u and tweak rate her;could u ellaborate as there may well be something I have missed!

[Slinkdawg]

Candy does cost you some stones, but she brings alot to the table.

She has a good number of wounds, and a high Defense. Her sweets are helpful if Pandora, Candy, or Teddy get hurt and need a little healing. There's not much else in the crew that can heal everyone (and you can mimic this w doppelganger if u need to as well). You could also put a sorrow on her for martyr and have some decent protection (watch out for blasts though, cuz the sorrow's easy to hit)

Her "run away home" ability is really helpful on certain boards indoor and city boards mostly. As she can grab objectives and pass through walls or terrain.

Lastly, sometimes that last self loathing or two comes in handy big time to put down an enemy model. Plus, she's a casting expert.

[McDoogle]

Candy does cost you some stones, but she brings alot to the table.

She has a good number of wounds, and a high Defense. Her sweets are helpful if Pandora, Candy, or Teddy get hurt and need a little healing. There's not much else in the crew that can heal everyone (and you can mimic this w doppelganger if u need to as well). You could also put a sorrow on her for martyr and have some decent protection (watch out for blasts though, cuz the sorrow's easy to hit)

Her "run away home" ability is really helpful on certain boards indoor and city boards mostly. As she can grab objectives and pass through walls or terrain.

Lastly, sometimes that last self loathing or two comes in handy big time to put down an enemy model. Plus, she's a casting expert.

Thankyou for presenting the other side of the coin- I will post up what I end up choosing!

[Doctor Amos]

Play it out, get a feel. I have so many Ortegas near me that she's usually too out of her element to do too well, so her lists tend to get sprinkled with fast, hitty things (mostly nephelim). Nekima is surprising accomidating to the cause.

[McDoogle]

I will. I intend to give her a go over the xmas holidays- its just establishing my starting point. Im playing freikorps, Collete, Hamelin, Kirai and la croixs more than anything else, and Liliths doing me proud. Its just nice to have a diff crew to play, and not have my opponents putting all my success down to lilith alone!!!! Thanks for the advice Doc!

[karn987]

I got your PM and I'm working to stabalize all the Tactica's before I send them out again, so Ill have it to you soon.

But I think everyone already hit the nail on the head, you want your crew to synergize with Pandora. Basically, you want minions that have Wp duel causing effects or modify Wp duels in their many forms. Some good examples are obviously Madness, but Stitched Togethers are another lethal choice. Coppelius is a very very nice duel role model in that he has some Wp duel effects (and makes fleeing near him very nasty) and is also a potent melee monster. Duel models like this are essential against crews like the Ortega's or other Wp resistant crews (freikorps etc).

It is true, Pandora works well with 90% melee minions to. But I have not found these to match up to her Wp focused crews. But if you like the sound of her with the Rider and Nephilim, heck go for what makes ya happy man.

As for Totems, Im not sure what I prefer. I usually don't take one with her or if I do, I take the Primordial Magic as that ability on her totem, Persistent Distraction, is a bit buggy when some other effects come into play and so I tend to avoid using it. But the Vomit Worm is very nice, good Ca and all the suits you need.

On Candy, she is VERY good for Treasure Hunt. Grab the Treasure and Run Away Home through the wall of a building =). But in a down right slug fest, she can still hold her own. But some times you can find other uses for her points, all depends. You will find that a lot, all of her models (except Sorrows) are very situational in their most potent uses. So you can varry up your crew and still have a deadly, working crew nearly every game.

But one near auto include if you wish to go Wp focused, Doppelganger. Mimic Emotional Trauma and really whatever else you want and then hide, you basically double Pandora's damage, its wonderful =)

But yeah, bob and weave. Don't stand their and slug it out unless you have an advantage on the Wp duels. Her crew really is not tough at all and most have terrible Df and next to no defensive abilities. Though Lilitu's have nearly the same defensive measure as she does (wp vs wp to target) so you can capitalize on that as another source of Wp duels.

[McDoogle]

Many thanks (yeat again!) Karn!

I have been really pondering this, and yeah, your def right about the variety she has. And yeah, a Wp crew would make a nice change from Lilith's hitty-hitty style! But also believe in a 'plan z' ( i prefer this to 'plan b' as it normally means im about to lose or put on a great comeback) so some Melee capability would be good

So essientially a primoridal magic if at all, totem wise.

(I also sent a Q on outcast page- you said sorrows are good now; does this mean they are 'fixed' or something else?)

hmmmmmm does the mimic emotional trauma create a bigger bubble, or stack with Pandoras? (im thinking if you mimic one of her defensive triggers too this would be cool...)

I have ordered a dopple as model is great and I love the look of her, but may wait to include her after I have had some practice with a more generic/standard crew.

I have always loved the look and model of coppelius. Would he and the L of S box (minus 1 sorrow) make a viable starting 30ss crew? Might be my preferred option, or a Teddy instead (although I plan to won both models)Possible combos would seem to be:

Im thinking Kade and a Teddy, Kade and Candy, or Candy and Coppelius would be my 1st 3 pairings (I may be wrong..) Coppelius, Candy, a sorrow (or a terror tot~?) 2 madnesses and a PM totem comes to 30ss, could I start with that,realistically speaking? Or maybe even Kade, Candy, Coppelius and 2 Sorrows?

Alternative is, of course a more book 1 common L of S box, minus 1 sorrow and + Teddy (or as above Coppleius.

Which is best to START from for a new Pandora player...? Once I startI may find my own Pah but all journeys (in this case a 30ss, largely playing colette and various outcast crews and Kirai-btw are spirits immune to Wp duels?)
have to start somewhere!

[Ratty]

Aw.. McDoogle do you have to do Pandora, about 90% of the games I've had in Cambridge have been against Pandora, I'm getting bored of her.

[McDoogle]

Aw.. McDoogle do you have to do Pandora, about 90% of the games I've had in Cambridge have been against Pandora, I'm getting bored of her.

I also play Lilith and have a Mcmorning crew I am keeping out of sentiment, and sorry Ratty old chum, 'born is where I'm at and will also be doing Z at some point ( i like the whole wyrd sisters thing)

I play with 3 guys mainly, 1 is doing outcasts and Sheamus, 1 does everything, mainly guild and Kirai and 1 does Arcanists. Makes sense for me to do Pandora then Z, although I will be running mine with Collodi when he comes out. Im tempeted by Kaeris, who I may do, and will do LJ or Perdita as well. But not yet baby-those crews are more for enjoyment and painting-

Who do u rock??

Its good to be 'born!!!

[Ratty]

I've just started Z, she looks interesting and I do like Neverborn. It's just I've played Pandora FAR too much. McD is very cool I like him a lot, I will definitely get on to doing him sometime. When can you and your mates meet up, I haven't had a game in a couple of weeks as people are doing Christmas, BAH Humbug.

[McDoogle]

I will sort out a game against u when i finish for the term. I warn you tho, I only really play for fun!!! I dont play like I used to play 400pts 40k.....

[Ratty]

I will sort out a game against u when i finish for the term. I warn you tho, I only really play for fun!!! I dont play like I used to play 400pts 40k.....

I think it's the way to play Malifaux, you can't get too serious, especially while the rules are in flux like they are at the moment.

[karn987]

Many thanks (yeat again!) Karn!

I have been really pondering this, and yeah, your def right about the variety she has. And yeah, a Wp crew would make a nice change from Lilith's hitty-hitty style! But also believe in a 'plan z' ( i prefer this to 'plan b' as it normally means im about to lose or put on a great comeback) so some Melee capability would be good

So essientially a primoridal magic if at all, totem wise.

(I also sent a Q on outcast page- you said sorrows are good now; does this mean they are 'fixed' or something else?)

hmmmmmm does the mimic emotional trauma create a bigger bubble, or stack with Pandoras? (im thinking if you mimic one of her defensive triggers too this would be cool...)

I have ordered a dopple as model is great and I love the look of her, but may wait to include her after I have had some practice with a more generic/standard crew.

I have always loved the look and model of coppelius. Would he and the L of S box (minus 1 sorrow) make a viable starting 30ss crew? Might be my preferred option, or a Teddy instead (although I plan to won both models)Possible combos would seem to be:

Im thinking Kade and a Teddy, Kade and Candy, or Candy and Coppelius would be my 1st 3 pairings (I may be wrong..) Coppelius, Candy, a sorrow (or a terror tot~?) 2 madnesses and a PM totem comes to 30ss, could I start with that,realistically speaking? Or maybe even Kade, Candy, Coppelius and 2 Sorrows?

Alternative is, of course a more book 1 common L of S box, minus 1 sorrow and + Teddy (or as above Coppleius.

Which is best to START from for a new Pandora player...? Once I startI may find my own Pah but all journeys (in this case a 30ss, largely playing colette and various outcast crews and Kirai-btw are spirits immune to Wp duels?)
have to start somewhere!


Link was fixed, check the Extra Errata post in the Rules section. We have back the old end time and ability to link multiple models to a single mode. This is why Im taking so long to do my Pandora update, need to rework a good bulk of it for this =D

Mimicing Pandora's Emotional Trauma is a good idea because both will work at the same time. There is no "stacking" effect from them because they are just not that kind of thing, damage/wds is not a stacking effect. So overlaping coverage = 2 wds per failed wp duel (1 from each source). Add in Sorrows for Emotional Stress wounds and Wd loss piles up really fast.

The best start you can possibly have is take the starter box and play 25ss with that. You will learn her mechanics very quickly and figure out how she needs to work from that. If you want to go for 30ss, add in a Madness or some other small support. But I would say, keep it simple and go with the starter box up front and mod from there. There really is no bad crew with Pandora as long as you have at least a few models to capitalize on the Wp duel mechanics she has.

So have at it! Jump in and give it a try. When I get the Tactica out, that will give you pages of stuff to read about this, don't want to repeat myself here to much =D

[McDoogle]

Link was fixed, check the Extra Errata post in the Rules section. We have back the old end time and ability to link multiple models to a single mode. This is why Im taking so long to do my Pandora update, need to rework a good bulk of it for this =D

Mimicing Pandora's Emotional Trauma is a good idea because both will work at the same time. There is no "stacking" effect from them because they are just not that kind of thing, damage/wds is not a stacking effect. So overlaping coverage = 2 wds per failed wp duel (1 from each source). Add in Sorrows for Emotional Stress wounds and Wd loss piles up really fast.

The best start you can possibly have is take the starter box and play 25ss with that. You will learn her mechanics very quickly and figure out how she needs to work from that. If you want to go for 30ss, add in a Madness or some other small support. But I would say, keep it simple and go with the starter box up front and mod from there. There really is no bad crew with Pandora as long as you have at least a few models to capitalize on the Wp duel mechanics she has.

So have at it! Jump in and give it a try. When I get the Tactica out, that will give you pages of stuff to read about this, don't want to repeat myself here to much =D

Sir yes sir! Crew arrived today so msy even give her a bash tomorrow. Great coincidence (or the nerverborn fates...) that I have a game tomo, crew arrives, and you give me the best news about link!!!!! (Bounces of a few walls)

With link fixed will def start with the original crew (thats what its designed for after all!!!!) Will put in another sorrow and primordial magic or a madness.

I also have a teddy, a dopple ganger and a poltergiest to choose from as I go (obviously will buy when avaliable!!!)

WOW doppleganger layeth the smack down in this crew! Sorry for the bad wording, I meant inflicts 2 WDs, just using wrong terminology!!!!!

Eagerly awaiting the tactica, and honestly thanks as always for the advice.
Your Neverborn Padawan, McDoogle

[Deuce]

WOW doppleganger lays the smaketh down in this crew! Sorry for the bad wording, I meant inflicts 2 WDs, just using wrong terminology!!!!!

And well you should be sorry! The proper phrasing would be "layeth down the smack!" And don't you forget it!

[McDoogle]

Link was fixed, check the Extra Errata post in the Rules section. We have back the old end time and ability to link multiple models to a single mode. This is why Im taking so long to do my Pandora update, need to rework a good bulk of it for this =D


If anyone can help with his ASAP it would be greatly appreciated.....

Have looked. I take it he second post by weird sketch has over ruled the first ruling , as I have trawled thorugh all the errata and cannot see anything specific. In short, i take that:

A)More than 1 Sorrow can link to Pandora at a time

B)This link allows them to move into base to base with her WHENEVER she is moved, including her pushes

C)I cannot choose to end this link, it keeps going until (please see D)

D)This link lasts until the beginning of the sorrows NEXT ACTIVATION. (or is it the end close phase???)

I'm only eager to know as will possibly use her tomo night... Am I correct in these, and am I missing anything?

[McDoogle]

And well you should be sorry! The proper phrasing would be "layeth down the smack!" And don't you forget it!

Too right. Amended (and I called myself Rock fan :(

[Wodschow]

If anyone can help with his ASAP it would be greatly appreciated.....

Have looked. I take it he second post by weird sketch has over ruled the first ruling , as I have trawled thorugh all the errata and cannot see anything specific. In short, i take that:

A)More than 1 Sorrow can link to Pandora at a time

B)This link allows them to move into base to base with her WHENEVER she is moved, including her pushes

C)I cannot choose to end this link, it keeps going until (please see D)

D)This link lasts until the beginning of the sorrows NEXT ACTIVATION. (or is it the end close phase???)

I'm only eager to know as will possibly use her tomo night... Am I correct in these, and am I missing anything?

You are missing alot I'm afraid :S

As per the latest change A) is correct, but that is the only point.

B) - Linking models are pushed into base contact after the model they're linked to finishes the Wk action or ends her activation.
So unless you spend AP walking Pandora will not drag Sorrows along with her untill after her activation. Ie. they don't move when she's using Fading Memory.

C/D) The link ends whenever they're not in base contact at the start closing phase. All you need to do to end it is to move either Pandora or the Sorrow after Pandora have had her activation that turn.


Edit:

The correct link is the one that has been edited a few times in the extra errata thread. But it should be solid now and working as intended.
http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=140465#post140465

[karn987]

You are missing alot I'm afraid :S

As per the latest change A) is correct, but that is the only point.

B) - Linking models are pushed into base contact after the model they're linked to finishes the Wk action or ends her activation.
So unless you spend AP walking Pandora will not drag Sorrows along with her untill after her activation. Ie. they don't move when she's using Fading Memory.

C/D) The link ends whenever they're not in base contact at the start closing phase. All you need to do to end it is to move either Pandora or the Sorrow after Pandora have had her activation that turn.


Edit:

The correct link is the one that has been edited a few times in the extra errata thread. But it should be solid now and working as intended.
http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=140465#post140465


Wodschow beat me to it all *shakes fist* ;D

All spot on =D

[McDoogle]

You are missing alot I'm afraid :S

As per the latest change A) is correct, but that is the only point.

B) - Linking models are pushed into base contact after the model they're linked to finishes the Wk action or ends her activation.
So unless you spend AP walking Pandora will not drag Sorrows along with her untill after her activation. Ie. they don't move when she's using Fading Memory.

C/D) The link ends whenever they're not in base contact at the start closing phase. All you need to do to end it is to move either Pandora or the Sorrow after Pandora have had her activation that turn.


Edit:

The correct link is the one that has been edited a few times in the extra errata thread. But it should be solid now and working as intended.
http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=140465#post140465

As usual!!!!lol
Thanks to you both for your timely replies!

So A) was all good......

B)Sorrow can move to base to base with Pandora (but not the other way round...) when she makes a walk or ends her activation.
So, for e.g. if I use incite twice and then walk I CAN or MUST summon sorrow?? Can I choose to leave sorrows- i,e, effectively move them for free when Pandora moves, or MUST they always use this ability when possible?

And I CAN use all of her actions, and then move the sorrows into base to base as soon as her activation ends for "free", for want of a better term?

I apologize if i appear slow, I have never used this (seemingly complex!) rule before...

for C/D The link:
1)stays active until they are no longer in B-2-B at start of end close phase only, so I could push Pandora away again, push her back and the link is restored...? Or I can move Sorrows into base to base at the ned of her activation to keep it alive, right???

But the link itself stays active over the transition between turns....

If thats all correct (which I doubt) I think im nearly there...

In essence it means woes can stay in base to base with Pandora to a)keep her defences up and running and b)inflict extra WP wounds and can link to enemies to cast their abilties, inlfict wounds and block LofS....

Hope ive got it now :s

[Wodschow]

As usual!!!!lol
Thanks to you both for your timely replies!

So A) was all good......

B)Sorrow can move to base to base with Pandora (but not the other way round... correct) when she makes a walk or ends her activation.
So, for e.g. if I use incite twice and then walk I CAN or MUST summon sorrow?? Can I choose to leave sorrows- i,e, effectively move them for free when Pandora moves, or MUST they always use this ability when possible?
Whenever Pandora finishes a move or ends her activation you must move the linked Sorrows into base contact with her. (I suppose this is argueable, but I see no ambiguity in the rules and Wyrd have generally added a 'may' when something is voluntary, thus my answer.)

And I CAN use all of her actions, and then move the sorrows into base to base as soon as her activation ends for "free", for want of a better term?
Yes, in fact you must do this.

I apologize if i appear slow, I have never used this (seemingly complex!) rule before...

for C/D The link:
1)stays active until they are no longer in B-2-B at start of end close phase only, so I could push Pandora away again, push her back and the link is restored...? Or I can move Sorrows into base to base at the ned of her activation to keep it alive, right???
Yes, I might've been a bit unclear about explaining this before. As long as the models are in base contact at the start closing phase Link is retained, regardless of what happened during the turn.
I simply meant that if you want to end link, all you need to do is move them apart after Pandoras activation (as if you do it before they'll zip together when she finishes it).

But the link itself stays active over the transition between turns....

If thats all correct (which I doubt) I think im nearly there...

In essence it means woes can stay in base to base with Pandora to a)keep her defences up and running and b)inflict extra WP wounds and can link to enemies to cast their abilties, inlfict wounds and block LofS....
Yes! That's the strong and intended synergy in the Legion of Sorrow.

Hope ive got it now :s
(red text mine)

Hope this clears the last bits up :)

[McDoogle]

(Wodschow)Thankyou sir, mightily appreciated. Think I will give her a run tomorrow. I have been looking at the LofS models and love them (as well dopp and teddy-cant believe he is one piece!!!).

Am thinking of either-

1)painting ,magic coming out of the box black, returning to classic roots OR 2) leaving it off altogether...just have a box with no magic (as in shes between using it.

Any thoughts....???? (Thought I could maybe use the magic as a PM totem jut to be a bit different if I did this)

McDoogle

[McDoogle]

Thanks too all who have advised me on my list- played a very enjoyable draw a few days back and learned alot. Pandora is great fun to play. I didn't get the best out of Candy, however- partly due to my gaming style, and partly due to a silly mistake, and I have decided that, for now, she will drop to my bench except for certain missions.

Think I will be trying:

30ss list
Pandora (Cache 5)
Sorrow 3ss
Sorrow 3ss
Coppelius 9ss
Kade 6ss
Stitched Together 5ss
Insidious Madness 4ss

Keep IM and, is possible, ST near Coppelius.

A couple of Q's:

Coppelius "all living models take a WP duel when gaining an eye counter" will also affect Pandora and my woes.

Stitched togethers creeping fog- I take it i announce I am using this, and then every model within 4 counts as being in a "bubble of ht 5 obscuring terrain and thus cannot be targeted by spells or ranged attacks, but can still be hit in melee". Is this correct???

If pandora is within 12" of a model which fails a resist duel for a spell (or against an ability which lets me use models Wp instead of DF) does this model lose a wound, similarly with the woes.

Finally, I am playing a friends Freikorps next week- do his models, due to stubborn etc, von schills +to WP and librarians abilities ignore my ability to ignore WP duels, as I think von schill, i think gets to WP 10 or something- theres no way im getting past that if thats the case (an 11 for him would beat my RJ, although the exact figure may be different....

Thanks go out in advance.....!

[Ratty]

Stitched togethers creeping fog- I take it i announce I am using this, and then every model within 4 counts as being in a "bubble of ht 5 obscuring terrain and thus cannot be targeted by spells or ranged attacks, but can still be hit in melee". Is this correct???


Not quite. If the line between models traces through more than 3" of fog then they can't draw LOS.


Obscuring terrain grants models in the area soft cover. Obscuring terrain blocks a model's LoS if there is more that 3” of obscuring terrain between it and the target. Models can draw LoS into and through obscuring area terrain if the distance is less than 3”. Multiple separate pieces of obscuring terrain do not stack to block LoS.


Finally, I am playing a friends Freikorps next week- do his models, due to stubborn etc, von schills +to WP and librarians abilities ignore my ability to ignore WP duels, as I think von schill, i think gets to WP 10 or something- theres no way im getting past that if thats the case (an 11 for him would beat my RJ, although the exact figure may be different....

Thanks go out in advance.....!Remember to take Soulstones, you will need to spend them to guarantee spells get through.

[McDoogle]

Clcl cheers Ratty. I take it that means you think the Freikorps are immune to all Pandoras willpower goodies, and i need to take out von schill and librarian asap with comba model like Kade, Coppelius and S-T.

In short with the fog, keep ST more than 3" infront of Pandora or others, cast spells then activate ST next to block LofS to her.

[Ratty]

They shouldn't be immune as you have "The Box Opens" however Wp 7 vs Wp 10 is going to be hard unless you pump soulstones into the Casting.

[McDoogle]

They shouldn't be immune as you have "The Box Opens" however Wp 7 vs Wp 10 is going to be hard unless you pump soulstones into the Casting.

The high will power is, i believe down to abilities. This is what my opponent tells me, and he thinks he is immune to my box...???! I am going to check the book to check; next time your looking at rising powers could you check what u think, which ability trumps....

[Ratty]

Clcl cheers Ratty. I take it that means you think the Freikorps are immune to all Pandoras willpower goodies, and i need to take out von schill and librarian asap with comba model like Kade, Coppelius and S-T.

In short with the fog, keep ST more than 3" infront of Pandora or others, cast spells then activate ST next to block LofS to her.

Doesn't need to be 3" infront of Pandora as it's a 4" aura of fog. so if your standing right next to the ST you will get the advantage.

This diagram might explain it. The black circle is the fog. If a model is in that area it gets soft cover. The pink line is 3" from Pandora. so if Pandora is standing next to the Stitched Together. You would only be able to see her through the red corridor as that is the only direction where the LoS to her doesn't travel through 3" of fog.

http://nezumi.me.uk/fog.jpg

[Wodschow]

Remember that their bonus to Wp is only when they're defending (ie. resisting Pandoras spells - not when attacking her) and Von Schills aura only works for Morale Duels (which mainly means Terrifying and Coppelius - not Pandoras normal spells).

Freikorps shouldn't reach Wp values higher than 8, so even when they get their Stubborn bonus you should still have the edge with Soulstones. Generally you shouldn't bother casting at the Librarian though as she can just Counterspell it.


A couple of Q's:

Coppelius "all living models take a WP duel when gaining an eye counter" will also affect Pandora and my woes.
Correct.

If pandora is within 12" of a model which fails a resist duel for a spell (or against an ability which lets me use models Wp instead of DF) does this model lose a wound, similarly with the woes.
Eh, I wonder how you got a draw if this wasn't how you played it as this is how Pandora does the majority of her damage. :) Every time an enemy model loses a duel in which it uses the Wp stat it loses a Wd if it's close to Pandora/Sorrows - Note also that due to the wording those abilities stack, so if an enemy model loses a Wp duel next to two Sorrows it loses 2 Wd rather than 1.

[McDoogle]

wicked. So the ST gets is as well, as it is RADIUS 4", not DIAMETER 4"....awesome- having 2 of them in bigger games!!!

Obviously Pandoras line of sight for spells (and anyone else in it) is obscure over 3", but models can still charge one another...

[Ratty]

The high will power is, i believe down to abilities. This is what my opponent tells me, and he thinks he is immune to my box...???! I am going to check the book to check; next time your looking at rising powers could you check what u think, which ability trumps....

OK he gets +2 Wp when defending in duels. so most of the models are Wp 7 (Schill 8)

Von Schill has an Aura that give +4 Wp in morale duels. The only Morale Duel you have would be terrifying, Pandora's attacks aren't moral duels.

The Librarian has nothing.

They all have Magic Resistance, but that doesn't matter as it's not the spell doing the damage it's a Talent that triggers off a spell.

As far as I can see everything should work fine.

[Ratty]

wicked. So the ST gets is as well, as it is RADIUS 4", not DIAMETER 4"....awesome- having 2 of them in bigger games!!!

Obviously Pandoras line of sight for spells (and anyone else in it) is obscure over 3", but models can still charge one another...

No as you need LoS to charge (Most of the time)

[McDoogle]

Remember that their bonus to Wp is only when they're defending (ie. resisting Pandoras spells - not when attacking her) and Von Schills aura only works for Morale Duels (which mainly means Terrifying and Coppelius - not Pandoras normal spells).

Freikorps shouldn't reach Wp values higher than 8, so even when they get their Stubborn bonus you should still have the edge with Soulstones. Generally you shouldn't bother casting at the Librarian though as she can just Counterspell it.

Ok, so if they try and target P and fail they do not get the bonud, great. M opponent has been targeting my sorrows- great for her surivability, not so great for causing wounds.

So stubborn still applies...will have to think about how I play them carefuly- and i'll melee the librarian as I do not like her ability to heal.

Was a draw as I had the "get out of your deployment zone" strategy, and had 3 models which counted as scoring (sorrows being insig) so lost the chance to win very early. Was also played largely for fun, with a competative edge.

BTW is it the hunter ability ortegas etc have? This ability, just ignores bonuses for hard and soft cover, right? It doesnt ignore intervening, i.e. impassable/hard or mpre than 3" does it? An opponent keeps saying it does, but im not so sure?

[McDoogle]

No as you need LoS to charge (Most of the time)

So you would have to move into melee tange and strike, losing that important +dmg flip...cool

[McDoogle]

OK he gets +2 Wp when defending in duels. so most of the models are Wp 7 (Schill 8)

Von Schill has an Aura that give +4 Wp in morale duels. The only Morale Duel you have would be terrifying, Pandora's attacks aren't moral duels.

The Librarian has nothing.

They all have Magic Resistance, but that doesn't matter as it's not the spell doing the damage it's a Talent that triggers off a spell.

As far as I can see everything should work fine.

clcl. Do they get this bonus when in range of "the box opens"

[Ratty]

Hunter: This model ignores cover and increases its LoS through obscuring terrain to 6”.
So they would be able to shoot her through the ST fog 6", so she would have to stand behind it to get any advantage, and even then they could shoot the Stitched Together.

http://nezumi.me.uk/fog2.jpg

[Ratty]

clcl. Do they get this bonus when in range of "the box opens"

The Box Open only removes immunity. This is not an immunity it just increases there Wp by 2 when defending. So the Box open has no effect.

[McDoogle]

So they would be able to shoot her through the ST fog 6", so she would have to stand behind it to get any advantage, and even then they could shoot the Stitched Together.

http://nezumi.me.uk/fog2.jpg

Awesome. Diagrams really helped dude!

[Ratty]

BTW As I have 2 Stitched together I'm going to make a fog template, to make things easier when playing.

[McDoogle]

BTW As I have 2 Stitched together I'm going to make a fog template, to make things easier when playing.

(Leaves Cheese) may I have a copy, and could I presuade you to make one for Lilith's Illusionary forest ( I have no idea how long these things take...!)

[oozeboss]

BTW As I have 2 Stitched together I'm going to make a fog template, to make things easier when playing.

Your wondrous tokens enhance my games as it is, so this would be the cherry on top. Allow for the maximum of 3 such tokens, as I imagine Collodi players will be maxing out of Stitched Togethers, at least in the very short term.


Many thanks, again, for your visions and generosity.


:elefant::elefant::elefant::elefant::elefant:

[McDoogle]

Your wondrous tokens enhance my games as it is, so this would be the cherry on top. Allow for the maximum of 3 such tokens, as I imagine Collodi players will be maxing out of Stitched Togethers, at least in the very short term.


Many thanks, again, for your visions and generosity.



:elefant::elefant::elefant::elefant::elefant:



Here Here!

[The Green Git]

Your wondrous tokens enhance my games as it is, so this would be the cherry on top. Allow for the maximum of 3 such tokens, as I imagine Collodi players will be maxing out of Stitched Togethers, at least in the very short term.


Many thanks, again, for your visions and generosity.


:elefant::elefant::elefant::elefant::elefant:


Sans Elephants, what Ooze said. The quality of the art on your tokens is second only to your generosity in sharing them with us. Thanks again Ratty!

[McDoogle]

Any tips for bes way to use coppelius in Pandoras crew- I would have thought near the IM and stitched I have in there, with the sorrows and bodyguarding Pandora and Kade running interference....

[karn987]

Any tips for bes way to use coppelius in Pandoras crew- I would have thought near the IM and stitched I have in there, with the sorrows and bodyguarding Pandora and Kade running interference....

Well I have that section broken down in my tactica, but some basics are... His terrifying. Capitalize on it and try to make people flee when he comes close. They will take Wds from Pandora and his ability. Otherwise he doesn't have any real Wp synergies. Though Sleep My Friends works well since it is a Wp resist AND if you have alps it will cause their effects to go off which is even more damage =D.

Otherwise his melee power, healing ability, and model spawning make him great for any Neverborn crew. Plus he has Paralyze trigger built in... whats not to love about that? =D

[McDoogle]

Well I have that section broken down in my tactica, but some basics are... His terrifying. Capitalize on it and try to make people flee when he comes close. They will take Wds from Pandora and his ability. Otherwise he doesn't have any real Wp synergies. Though Sleep My Friends works well since it is a Wp resist AND if you have alps it will cause their effects to go off which is even more damage =D.

Otherwise his melee power, healing ability, and model spawning make him great for any Neverborn crew. Plus he has Paralyze trigger built in... whats not to love about that? =D

Could i request the updated tactica glorious one, the lilith one was awesome!!!

The changes I made during the last game were to lose the totem (although 7 cards was really cool!) and upgrade candy to coppelius and a sorrow to a madness- i think his melee really gives a plan b, I LOVE the model, and think he will work better for me than candy. She will have her place tho I am sure....

Gone the WP way,buteveryone seems to say this is to broken. If this becomes the case (althought the spread of wins in my gaming circle is pretty even) I will probs look for a more challenging way to play her.

My problem is that if this is the case, I just plain love her models- my main prob with my lilith crew is that I love tots BBS and nekima, and Lelu and lilitu are just better imo in 30ss games (speaking generally)

Thanks for the advice: looking forward to using him!!!

[karn987]

Could i request the updated tactica glorious one, the lilith one was awesome!!!

The changes I made during the last game were to lose the totem (although 7 cards was really cool!) and upgrade candy to coppelius and a sorrow to a madness- i think his melee really gives a plan b, I LOVE the model, and think he will work better for me than candy. She will have her place tho I am sure....

Gone the WP way,buteveryone seems to say this is to broken. If this becomes the case (althought the spread of wins in my gaming circle is pretty even) I will probs look for a more challenging way to play her.

My problem is that if this is the case, I just plain love her models- my main prob with my lilith crew is that I love tots BBS and nekima, and Lelu and lilitu are just better imo in 30ss games (speaking generally)

Thanks for the advice: looking forward to using him!!!


Of course =) Just send me a PM asap as I should have the updates done and sent out tonight and it's a BIG list this time (well over 50 requests >.>).

Well Pandora is not broken by any means. What most people perceive as broken about her is that she attacks you through a unique method. Since most people are not ready for it and do poorly at adapting to her play style, they call her broken. In reality, once they get used to her, they see that she is just powerful. But as you probably know, she has her lynch pin spells and abilities and the key to defeating Pandora is defeating her Wp duels. Units like the Freikorps are FANTASTIC at doing this, were as things like Undead are generally fodder for her.

But the Wp based Route is maybe slightly stronger then the non-wp base route. It's really hard to say... I think it more depends on your play style. I love tricks and I never go into a fight without having half a dozen aces up my sleeve. My moto is: Why fight fair when you can cheat fate? ;D

If anything, I think the Wp based route is much harder to pull off because the best models for this are often fragile and your plans for success are much more fragile. Though all this being said, when they work it's an iron tight trap. Ever seen Lady J with Dementia on her with 2 negative flips to her Wp duels try to do anything? It's funny =D. But then again, ever seen what happens if she manages to pass the duels? Its messy D=

So I say go for Wp and go with mixed units like Lilitu + Lelu, Coppelius etc. You want a few Sorrows now that they are back in the saddle again. Madness are very very nice with her, but don't go insane with them. Stitched Together can deal out a HUGE amount of damage but are a tad short range.

So you will see =) The updated tactica has some nice stuff in it.

[Wodschow]

I love tricks and I never go into a fight without having half a dozen aces up my sleeve. My moto is: Why fight fair when you can cheat fate? ;D

Uh oh.. I think you misunderstood something quite fundamental in Malifaux.. :P

Aces are a bad thing, and certainly not suitable for you to cheat fate with!! :D

[McDoogle]

Of course =) Just send me a PM asap as I should have the updates done and sent out tonight and it's a BIG list this time (well over 50 requests >.>).

Well Pandora is not broken by any means. What most people perceive as broken about her is that she attacks you through a unique method. Since most people are not ready for it and do poorly at adapting to her play style, they call her broken. In reality, once they get used to her, they see that she is just powerful. But as you probably know, she has her lynch pin spells and abilities and the key to defeating Pandora is defeating her Wp duels. Units like the Freikorps are FANTASTIC at doing this, were as things like Undead are generally fodder for her.

But the Wp based Route is maybe slightly stronger then the non-wp base route. It's really hard to say... I think it more depends on your play style. I love tricks and I never go into a fight without having half a dozen aces up my sleeve. My moto is: Why fight fair when you can cheat fate? ;D

If anything, I think the Wp based route is much harder to pull off because the best models for this are often fragile and your plans for success are much more fragile. Though all this being said, when they work it's an iron tight trap. Ever seen Lady J with Dementia on her with 2 negative flips to her Wp duels try to do anything? It's funny =D. But then again, ever seen what happens if she manages to pass the duels? Its messy D=

So I say go for Wp and go with mixed units like Lilitu + Lelu, Coppelius etc. You want a few Sorrows now that they are back in the saddle again. Madness are very very nice with her, but don't go insane with them. Stitched Together can deal out a HUGE amount of damage but are a tad short range.

So you will see =) The updated tactica has some nice stuff in it.

Pm sent!! Am very much looking forward to reading it sir!!

I also like a tricky playing style with mutliple "plan z's" to fall back on. And yeah I agree-cheating fate is FAR more fun!

Yeah I had firgured out the Wp weakness, which is why I like the ST/coppelius link and have Kade as an option (chuck in a few crows and hey presto!!)

I love the stitched together for sure, but are they really that good in combat?I know the radius 4"/diameter 8" fog is awesome, and great to use after Pandora has gone (cast with her, move her, move ST then cast fog.
(Plus they look like the boogeyman from 'the nightmare before xmas'-great models)

IM are great when you make them flee. On that note, I didnt realise you moved fleeing models in THEIR next activation, effectively costing them 2 activations...!!!

Is Ratty correct when he says sorrows dont push after Pandora pushes (he normally is!)

Many thanks,
your (grateful) neverborn padawan

[karn987]

Pm sent!! Am very much looking forward to reading it sir!!

I also like a tricky playing style with mutliple "plan z's" to fall back on. And yeah I agree-cheating fate is FAR more fun!

Yeah I had firgured out the Wp weakness, which is why I like the ST/coppelius link and have Kade as an option (chuck in a few crows and hey presto!!)

I love the stitched together for sure, but are they really that good in combat?I know the radius 4"/diameter 8" fog is awesome, and great to use after Pandora has gone (cast with her, move her, move ST then cast fog.
(Plus they look like the boogeyman from 'the nightmare before xmas'-great models)

IM are great when you make them flee. On that note, I didnt realise you moved fleeing models in THEIR next activation, effectively costing them 2 activations...!!!

Is Ratty correct when he says sorrows dont push after Pandora pushes (he normally is!)

Many thanks,
your (grateful) neverborn padawan


Yup Ratty is right. They only follow up when the model they are linked to Wk's pretty much. So no easy button on this one ;D

As for Stitched Together, look at Gamble Your Life and Gambler. Both are Wp based and have some very nice effects tied to them. Gamble Your Life does a LOT of dmg when paired with Pandora and Sorrows and can be made into an easy win with Madness or Project Emotions. So they can bring a big punch to your crews usual style of Death by a thousand cuts.

Plus they are tough as nails and nice and cheap. They make great objective holders and grabbers thanks to Does Not Die (funny as heck if one can get the Treasure chest =D)

[Ratty]

Yup Ratty is right. They only follow up when the model they are linked to Wk's pretty much. So no easy button on this one ;D

Remember that although the Sorrow doesn't move after you push with Incite or Pacify, they do move to you at the end of your activation. your real issue is you won't get the extra Wd from your Sorrow on failed Wp tests if you strip yourself away from them with Incite/Pacify. Sometimes it might be worth. Inciting yourself into position and then Walking once to get the extra Wd, especially if you are going to drop a blast.

[McDoogle]

Yup Ratty is right. They only follow up when the model they are linked to Wk's pretty much. So no easy button on this one ;D

As for Stitched Together, look at Gamble Your Life and Gambler. Both are Wp based and have some very nice effects tied to them. Gamble Your Life does a LOT of dmg when paired with Pandora and Sorrows and can be made into an easy win with Madness or Project Emotions. So they can bring a big punch to your crews usual style of Death by a thousand cuts.

Plus they are tough as nails and nice and cheap. They make great objective holders and grabbers thanks to Does Not Die (funny as heck if one can get the Treasure chest =D)

Clcl, thought he would be!!

Havent used those abilties yet (only played once will have too look at those friday) Why does "does not die" make for a great objective holder...I know it means he re-activates if he has already gone which is cool, but have I missed something else/other implications (as in can you keep him alive for more turns/heal him or some other such trick?)

[McDoogle]

Remember that although the Sorrow doesn't move after you push with Incite or Pacify, they do move to you at the end of your activation. your real issue is you won't get the extra Wd from your Sorrow on failed Wp tests if you strip yourself away from them with Incite/Pacify. Sometimes it might be worth. Inciting yourself into position and then Walking once to get the extra Wd, especially if you are going to drop a blast.

Clcl, thankyou for the advice "dear fellow" (sorry but it makes me think wind in the willows!)

[McDoogle]

Clcl, thought he would be!!

Havent used those abilties yet (only played once will have too look at those friday) Why does "does not die" make for a great objective holder...I know it means he re-activates if he has already gone which is cool, but have I missed something else/other implications (as in can you keep him alive for more turns/heal him or some other such trick?)

Yeah, I still dont get does not die: does he get removed at the end of the start close phase, or does he just keep going until "removed from play" or sacrificed?

[karn987]

Yeah, I still dont get does not die: does he get removed at the end of the start close phase, or does he just keep going until "removed from play" or sacrificed?

"Does Not Die!: When this model would be killed, it instead remains in play with 1 Wd remaining. If this model already activated this turn it receives Reactivate. Sacrifice this model during the Resolve Effects Step."

The last underlined line tells you when he is sacrificed (which is removing him from play essentially). But he is sacrificed, as in the game term and function sacrifice, nothing else. He get's sacrificed during the Resolve Effects Step.

Simple enough once you wrap your head around it. Got it figured out?

[Wodschow]

Notice that what karn is quoting is the old description from the book, the one featured on the card includes a clause that prevents you from burying Stitched after they died the first time.
Which is really only relevant for the Dreamer so not too relevant here, yeah well..

Also note that they can only reactivate once a turn, even if killed multiple times.

[McDoogle]

Notice that what karn is quoting is the old description from the book, the one featured on the card includes a clause that prevents you from burying Stitched after they died the first time.
Which is really only relevant for the Dreamer so not too relevant here, yeah well..

Also note that they can only reactivate once a turn, even if killed multiple times.


"Does Not Die!: When this model would be killed, it instead remains in play with 1 Wd remaining. If this model already activated this turn it receives Reactivate. Sacrifice this model during the Resolve Effects Step."

The last underlined line tells you when he is sacrificed (which is removing him from play essentially). But he is sacrificed, as in the game term and function sacrifice, nothing else. He get's sacrificed during the Resolve Effects Step.

Simple enough once you wrap your head around it. Got it figured out?

Yeah, thanks guys, this was what I thought it meant. I befuzzled myself-this is how I played it orignally but posts I read seemed to make me think I may have been missing something-me being a muppet. Thanks!

[McDoogle]

Thought Id leave some feedback, and share some of my finds...

I love Stitched together- I just played a game (using it properly) with one and they are awesome! In fact in some games I think either dropping a sorrow from my list and upgrading my insidious madness and taking a primordial magic or even dropping (love the model and the rules, but at the momenthe just isnt suiting my style of play- getting pandora where she needs to be is easier with 2 stitched together, and they work better with coppelius than Kade (nightmares and dont eat crows!) Managed to summon an alp- it was hilarious (for me!!!). Coppelius was awesome but got red-jokered, and while i rate I-M they and Kade arent working so well ATM. Need a bit more speed perhaps (or a bigger cloud to let coppelius move wherever he wants) and think a nightmare/woe strike force backed up by Pandora and a pair of woes (or a woe and either candy or Kade) may be the way im headed

And theory-fauxing with my book today- I think Marcus can be played well with those undead bat things in rising powers- for 3ss a model they are great and wouls work well with some of his conventional beasties (i think I worked ou x4 with either x2 sabretooths or 1 and a lawyer for giggles- not a neverbor question per say, just wondered what other think of this list as I keep hearing Marcus referred to as "the weakest master"...just interesed!)

McDoogle

[viggo3000]

Stitched togethers work well. They work with all the neverborn masters and pandoras wp nerfing is nice for them. They can give cover to the rest of the crew if you face somethin shooty (wich is nice since pandoras crew often is kinda fragile)

For 5 points they are a steal.

[McDoogle]

Stitched togethers work well. They work with all the neverborn masters and pandoras wp nerfing is nice for them. They can give cover to the rest of the crew if you face somethin shooty (wich is nice since pandoras crew often is kinda fragile)

For 5 points they are a steal.

Yeah, I agree! project emotions, (preferably cast with a crew to make everyone run) followed by stitched together casting gamble your life (with enemies on a -flip) is just awesome! 2 of these, I think will be awesome.

Add these two with coppelius for 19 soulstones, leaves me with one of these:

i) 2 sorrows and IM 10 ss
ii) Candy and a sorrow 11ss (to bodyguard Pandora)
iii) Kade, a sorrow, and Primodial magic 11ss
iv) 3 sorrows and a primordial magic

May try Candy to keep Pandora alive, Kade to bodyguard her and be my next plan if nightmares fail. I love sorrows, and would ideally use 2 (i think 3 may be to many- makes her very vulnerable to blasts) but candy, while more expensive may bring more to the table. Of course, a dopple ganger and a sorrow could also work to.

[karn987]

One of my favorite things about Pandora is that there isn't really a bad way to build her crew. You can do a variety of different builds (some of course work better then others) and they will all be able to win.

Give each a try, find what you like. You don't have to stick to the same list all the time =)

[Natty]

One of my favorite things about Pandora is that there isn't really a bad way to build her crew. You can do a variety of different builds (some of course work better then others) and they will all be able to win.


Well, there is one bad way to build a Pandora crew and that is if you don't take a doppelganger. Best model ever for Pandora.

But yeah, Pandora and a doppelganger don't even need backup. I say take the models that you think look the coolest.

[karn987]

Well, there is one bad way to build a Pandora crew and that is if you don't take a doppelganger. Best model ever for Pandora.

But yeah, Pandora and a doppelganger don't even need backup. I say take the models that you think look the coolest.

Nope. Not even required. I didn't use it for a long time and did very well with her. Heck I don't even use it all that much right now and still do very well. It is not a requirement to make her work =).

You can certainly build a crew around the idea of Doppel + Pandora Wp abuse. But it is far from the only way to do it.

The only thing you require to have a good Pandora crew is Pandora and make sure you spend those SS on some kind of crew. =D

[Wodschow]

Well, there is one bad way to build a Pandora crew and that is if you don't take a doppelganger. Best model ever for Pandora.

But yeah, Pandora and a doppelganger don't even need backup. I say take the models that you think look the coolest.

Oh c'mon now.. I really wish you didn't always say things like this. By being so blunt you're indirectly saying that people who don't bring the Doppel are bad.

Yes, the Doppelganger is a great minion, especially for Pandora.

But no, you don't -have- to include it.

You can easily make a list that isn't inherently bad without it.

[McDoogle]

It was the first model I bought along with teddy and the LofS, but sadly neither has been making my lists recently!

I love the dolls (-Zoroida WILL be done with Collodi when Collodi is released...!!!) so love mulitple stitched (ooggie boogie!!!) and I love Coppelius. Sorrows are also cool, but I really only like to link upto 2 to Pandora at once for Blast and her being able to move purposes!

Will eventually include Dopple, but no room atm! Am also trying to get the most out of Candy and Kade, to no avail-not suiting my current (and new and developing/still changing) playing style- why i'm loving the crew- too many questions and not enough answers!!!

Thanks for all the comments guys- and yeah Karn, my crew is to be selected from as many Ht 1/2 30mm base models as can be rammed in 1 case!!!
Q)Best way to counter models like a 'tina suped-up Hans who ignores terrain and can blast me to bits???

[Ratty]

I've played a lot against Pandora and I don't think I've had a game where the Doppleganger has even remotely made her points back. She is so easy to kill. If I had the choice I would rather face the Doppleganger than a couple of Stitched. I really don't think she's an auto include.

[viggo3000]

"tina suped-up Hans" ?

[McDoogle]

"tina suped-up Hans" ?

I may be wrong, but I was referring to the silent ones ability to increase his range. As it is I think that as long I can keep my stitched behing morw than 2" of coverplus fog I will be alright. Am I also correct in thinking that the Hunter ability does not allow you to target through walls, buildings etc even if they are less than 6"??? If so surely all I need to do is hide him behind a big enough wall or building (granted in the right place) then I will be ok!!!

[McDoogle]

Is this too many eggs in one basket (as a list variable, not an absolute list??):

Pandora (Cache 5)
2 Sorrows (6ss)
Coppelius (9ss)
3 Stitched Together (15ss)

Enjoy Insidious madnesses, and am still finding my feet with them. Great for missions when I need manouverability. The other thought I had was using them in the same role I currently use the sorrows in but without link (and link fixed) I think I prefer the sorrows.
I also think the crew plays well without a totem, and I think this crew could be fun- coppelius allows me to paralyze anything I don't want to take head on, Pandora makes think flee as well as the obvious Wp shenanigans, and aside from being simply beautiful models he stitched together are great fun, and both the gambling abilities are great fun.

My question, in summary, is am I putting to many eggs in 1 basket with this selection (as a general idea- obviously strategy flip will affect this).

[Alondir]

everytime iv used stitched they have been amazing, never been disapointed. only problem I can maybe see is if u lose a lot of the wp duels, but u do a lot more damage having Pandora there. Seems a solid list but didn't spot a madness

[karn987]

Is this too many eggs in one basket (as a list variable, not an absolute list??):

Pandora (Cache 5)
2 Sorrows (6ss)
Coppelius (9ss)
3 Stitched Together (15ss)

Enjoy Insidious madnesses, and am still finding my feet with them. Great for missions when I need manouverability. The other thought I had was using them in the same role I currently use the sorrows in but without link (and link fixed) I think I prefer the sorrows.
I also think the crew plays well without a totem, and I think this crew could be fun- coppelius allows me to paralyze anything I don't want to take head on, Pandora makes think flee as well as the obvious Wp shenanigans, and aside from being simply beautiful models he stitched together are great fun, and both the gambling abilities are great fun.

My question, in summary, is am I putting to many eggs in 1 basket with this selection (as a general idea- obviously strategy flip will affect this).

No that will work. Pandora can function at any crew design, elite spam, moderate spread, cheap spam etc. Remember that Pandora can win just by herself if need be, so it should work.

Just as always, watch out for Blast Damage and keep Coppelius safe or he will get eaten alive.

[McDoogle]

No that will work. Pandora can function at any crew design, elite spam, moderate spread, cheap spam etc. Remember that Pandora can win just by herself if need be, so it should work.

Just as always, watch out for Blast Damage and keep Coppelius safe or he will get eaten alive.

@Alondir-sorry, ive been running an IM, just (like Kade) not fitting m current playing style.

The general Idea is that list is my "im playing a 30ss game" starting point, then I have Kade (& maybe Candy), a pair of insidious madnesses, a teddy and a dopple ganger (which will almost certainly feature at some point in a new list) "on the bench" as it were, to swap in as needed...thanks for the feedback.

@Karn-awesome. Thanks for feedback-have learned out (the hard way!) to keep Coppelius safe- his 12" Float move, paralyze abilities and melee expert means he can paralyze models for a turn and fall back, allowing you to move the rest of my crew ino position. I agree, he definetly needs to be used carefully but I love him-another reason for the dolls as they are immune to his abilities and can heal off him.

Pandora was great- if I hadnt spammed off all my soulstones early on she wouldnt havedied she may have pretty much crippeled a Collette crew by herself (which had already won the game, but hey youve got to fight to the last!)

[Natty]

Nope. Not even required. I didn't use it for a long time and did very well with her.


That's because Pandora is one of the most powerful masters out there. But the question was about a "bad" way to build a Pandora crew. Sure you can win a TON of games with just Pandora and any old minion at all, but if you are taking Pandora as a given, and asking what a "bad" way to build her crew is, then I say not taking the doppelganger is bad. That is like not taking skeeters when you play Somer, or not taking undead minions when you play Nico.

I think Pandora is one of the best masters to let you personilize her crew just because she is so powerful that it doesn't matter what you take, but the doppelganger does everything for her and complements her perfectly.


I've played a lot against Pandora and I don't think I've had a game where the Doppleganger has even remotely made her points back. She is so easy to kill.

Well, I've played maybe 30 something games with Pandora and never once had the Doppelganger not earn its points. Not once. That model is breakable, sure, but if it is in danger or getting killed, then you need to plan ahead. Make any of the models that could get to it fall back. Activate the doppelganger first and copy defensive talents. Don't position the doppelganger where it is in trouble. Use pacify and incite to control their activations so you don't have to worry about the doppelganger (I tend to use that method a lot when I need to activate Pandora first and make sure I incite stuff that can't attack the doppel or pacify stuff that can).

Yeah, I've had the doppelganger die, but usually at the expense of a lot of resources from the opponent. The doppelganger is the most important minion in a Pandora crew and if you just throw it into the opponent's face, then it will probably die.

[Natty]

That being said, I did retire Pandora a couple months ago and haven't ever played her against some of the new super super fast crews. Pandora is a lot about positioning, harassing, and then striking when the time is right. I bet that a speedy crew like Colette or the Dreamer could mess up the best laid plans and take out the doppelganger without much worry.

[Ratty]

That being said, I did retire Pandora a couple months ago and haven't ever played her against some of the new super super fast crews. Pandora is a lot about positioning, harassing, and then striking when the time is right. I bet that a speedy crew like Colette or the Dreamer could mess up the best laid plans and take out the doppelganger without much worry.

My experience is with Kirai, which is fast. To get any use out of the Pandora synergy she has to be close and copying Offensive abilities, if she's doing that she is going to get killed almost immediately. If you make her defensive you don't get your points back on her.

[Natty]

My experience is with Kirai, which is fast. To get any use out of the Pandora synergy she has to be close and copying Offensive abilities, if she's doing that she is going to get killed almost immediately. If you make her defensive you don't get your points back on her.

When I go defensive with the doppelganger, I usually copy a defensive talent or stat, and then emotional trauma for extra damage for wp talents. Then I go into defensive stance. It takes a lot of resources to kill a doppelganger with 7 or 8 defense in defensive stance and copying nothing but emotional trauma the whole game will generally be a thorn in your opponents side.

I would say half the games I play with the doppelganger she is mainly just there to copy emotional trauma and when the time is right, copy a couple offensive abilities and go nuts with her, not caring if she dies.

[karn987]

That's because Pandora is one of the most powerful masters out there. But the question was about a "bad" way to build a Pandora crew. Sure you can win a TON of games with just Pandora and any old minion at all, but if you are taking Pandora as a given, and asking what a "bad" way to build her crew is, then I say not taking the doppelganger is bad. That is like not taking skeeters when you play Somer, or not taking undead minions when you play Nico.

I think Pandora is one of the best masters to let you personilize her crew just because she is so powerful that it doesn't matter what you take, but the doppelganger does everything for her and complements her perfectly.


Well Natty, your missing the point but thats fine. You make a lot of these statements. You are certainly right to an extent but it is far from cut and dry like you make it seem some times. It is not that black and white for the Doppelganger as it is for other models like Marionettes and Collidi.

Sure, as we have well established the Doppelganger is very good with Pandora. The Doppelganger is very good with most Neverborn Masters. But to say it is a bad Pandora crew to not include the Doppelganger is just false. As you said, it's been a while since you've used her.

I appreciate your view on this and your input on many posts but you confuse people with these things. She is not required to make the crew work, she is just a very good choice for the crew. An example of a required unit is the Daydreams for the Dreamer as he simply does not function well without them. So would be Marionettes for Collidi and Gremlins for Som'er. But even Sorrows are not required with Pandora, they are just very useful.

Really I should not be saying required as the only required models in the game I know of are Hollow Waifs for Leveticus. I should be saying Critical, because you can still play without those models but it generally immensely hurts the crew and master.

The Doppelganger is a very easy to gank model if someone wants to kill it. Unless you have the right things to Mimic to keep it safe or put a lot of effort into it, its not that hard to kill. Many units in book 1 and book 2 can threaten it and if nothing else, force it to stop Mimicing Emotional Trauma. Once it stops doing that and once it goes on the defensive it generally is not longer that big of a danger any more. But if left alone, it does tend to reek havoc.

I think most people have had games where its worth it's weight in gold and then others where it just gets nailed or there is no safe position to keep it. Guild Austringers for example are a huge pain in the but.

Ratty has it down. You can force the Doppelganger into submission by threatening it and having it go defensive or you can tempt it to go offensive and then kill it. Pandora can defend it and keep it safe but that wont last forever and she will be sacrificing other things to do it.

Basically:
Doppelganger with Pandora:
Pros: Terrifyingly powerful if left alone. Great double coverage of what makes Pandora so dangerous.
Cons: Expensive and easy to kill if focused on or to draining on your attention to keep it safe.


*Edited to be more clear in my meaning*

[Natty]

Basically Natty, please stop making these statements. I appreciate your view on this and your input on many posts but you confuse people with these things. She is not required to make the crew work, she is just a very good choice for the crew.

I think we are on totally different pages here. It was mentioned that there was no bad way to make a Pandora crew.

Something that is always

a very good choice for the crew.
seems to me like not taking it would be a bad choice.

There is no right or wrong way to play the game. It is about having fun, but if someone wants to know good and bad choices when building their crew, I am going to offer them honest advice, and that is that the doppelganger is ALWAYS a good choice. Not taking it is a bad choice. If you want to play certain models, then by all means, play those models and you can win with essentially any Pandora crew, but if you are asking me what is good/bad to take, then the only sure thing in my mind is that the doppelganger is GOOD. I can't see any competitive Pandora crew not using one, and that was basically the statement, what is good/bad, what is competitive, how do I WIN? That is what I think of when people say "bad". It's not like the cops are going to come in and arrest you when you don't field the doppelganger, but you have a MUCH better chance of winning by fielding one than if you don't field one. I can't see the result of that choice as anything but a "good" or "bad" choice.

Whooooooooo..... kinda ranted there, and I'm sorry. You are one of my favorite people on these boards, Karn, and I think you are probably the most helpful person around, but in this situation, I think it is pretty black and white, and the doppelganger is as important to building a good Pandora crew as multiple daydreams is to building a good Chompy crew.

[Natty]

Again, I'm sorry for the rant but I wanted to accentuate the point that I was talking about building a crew to win. Karn is totally right that there is never any way you HAVE to build a crew, but there are ways you can build crews that have a better chance of winning. Seriously, it's a game, if you don't like the doppelganger then don't play it. Pandora is a force to be reckoned with even is she is by herself.

I have never once lost a game using Pandora (most of the reason I retired her), and the doppelganger was vital in almost every one of those games. The games where the doppelganger wasn't vital was usually the games where I played silurid alpha strike, and took out entire crews with them (again, not fun). Even then, though, I used the doppelganger as a huge target to position my enemy correctly.

[McDoogle]

Again, I'm sorry for the rant but I wanted to accentuate the point that I was talking about building a crew to win. Karn is totally right that there is never any way you HAVE to build a crew, but there are ways you can build crews that have a better chance of winning. Seriously, it's a game, if you don't like the doppelganger then don't play it. Pandora is a force to be reckoned with even is she is by herself.

I have never once lost a game using Pandora (most of the reason I retired her), and the doppelganger was vital in almost every one of those games. The games where the doppelganger wasn't vital was usually the games where I played silurid alpha strike, and took out entire crews with them (again, not fun). Even then, though, I used the doppelganger as a huge target to position my enemy correctly.

Thats probably fair enough natty- with your playing style it seems you have really got the most out of her. I am not looking to win every game- thats not what I am asking when I ask if a model works. I was more asking "will I get my arse handed to me if I play with x".

The dopple is a great model, but at 8ss its pretty much her or Coppelius at 30ss.Hes been outstanding for me (especially when coupled with a few Stitched) and even though I cant claim to be enjoying the same amount of success, i'd go back to 40k as I lost VERY few games out of the 70+ opponents I played- thats not what this games about for me!!!!

My aim is to pick a crew that I really enjoy playing after 40 games, not one that bores me as I dont stop winning. The dopple will feature at some point, but I dont think I want any auto-includes in my crew, as I will get bored v. quickly.

I'm immensley greatful to all who have given me advice on the thread-especially woodshcow and Karn, they have really helped my understanding of the models I use. The most important thing they seem to say, however, is enjoy your game, which I whole heartedly agree with.

Try playing P again with a different list, not using the dopple. You may even enjoy her again. (Please note this is not meant to be inflammatory, merely a suggestion meant in the best possible way- ive started to enjoy 40k again as ive rediscovered the joy of turning up with a list and your opponent goes wtf!!!
Try playing her with the object of annoying your opponent- its great!!!!!) I believe I enjoy the neverborn the most when I adopt a mindset in line with the mask suit description- I love the deception and audascious attempts at stuff we can do (only topped by collettes "turn into a mannequin my pretty). Its not about the win, but the fun.

If 40k taught me anything, its how you win, not how often bud.

[oozeboss]

I believe I enjoy the neverborn the most when I adopt a mindset in line with the mask suit description - I love the deception and audascious attempts at stuff we can do (only topped by collettes "turn into a mannequin my pretty"). Its not about the win, but the fun.

If 40k taught me anything, its how you win, not how often bud.


..... which is the best advice of all ever given in this forum.

:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell

[Natty]

Try playing P again with a different list, not using the dopple. You may even enjoy her again.


Nah, the always winning was only a small part and it was mainly the fall back that made her not fun in my opinion. I really REALLY found everything about Pandora to be fun except the fall back trigger.

With fall back, a soulstoned cast and any minion in the game is out for up to 3 turns (run away, rally, run back), and a soulstoned cast and you have about a 50/50 shot of doing the same thing to a master (assuming they also have a high card and soulstone the resist)[and if they already have project emotions on them, you can get them to fall back even with a really low crow].

Then you throw on top of that the :minus twist and basically anything can kill someone that is falling back.

There is no single ability in the game that has anywhere near the power level of that fall back trigger. I didn't like looking at my first hand, seeing a few high crows, and immediately knowing the game was won before any activations were even taken. Since I've retired her I've played Zoraida, The Dreamer, and My friend's Viks crew and I have to say I have enjoyed all of those games a lot more than most of my Pandora games.

My biggest hope for Malifaux is that they release the Avatar version of Pandora and rework her without the fall back trigger.

[McDoogle]

Nah, the always winning was only a small part and it was mainly the fall back that made her not fun in my opinion. I really REALLY found everything about Pandora to be fun except the fall back trigger.

With fall back, a soulstoned cast and any minion in the game is out for up to 3 turns (run away, rally, run back), and a soulstoned cast and you have about a 50/50 shot of doing the same thing to a master (assuming they also have a high card and soulstone the resist)[and if they already have project emotions on them, you can get them to fall back even with a really low crow].

Then you throw on top of that the :minus twist and basically anything can kill someone that is falling back.

There is no single ability in the game that has anywhere near the power level of that fall back trigger. I didn't like looking at my first hand, seeing a few high crows, and immediately knowing the game was won before any activations were even taken. Since I've retired her I've played Zoraida, The Dreamer, and My friend's Viks crew and I have to say I have enjoyed all of those games a lot more than most of my Pandora games.

My biggest hope for Malifaux is that they release the Avatar version of Pandora and rework her without the fall back trigger.

You could just choose to not activate the trigger

[karn987]

@Natty

Completely fair man, I did speak unfairly. I'm glad your intentions are in the right place and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. My whole point was that the Doppelganger is not critical for her to win and that is was several of your posts made me think you meant. But I think we have this all cleared up now and are more on the same page. I just don't want to confuse new players to a master to think a model is required when its not and vice versa. Basically, it's not a Hollow Waif heh.

Any way, I think we are on the same page now and your 100% entitled to your rant. Heck knows I love to rant, so its all good by me.

Yeah... Pandora is mean =D

[Natty]

I think the point that we got messed up on this discussion is that the comparison between her and ANY other master is a tough one when talking about required models because Pandora is so powerful on her own. She will literally dominate most games by herself, which is something most masters cannot do. They need the help.

I think the doppelganger increases the power of Pandora on scale with how much daydreams increase the power of the Dreamer. It's just that she starts out so powerful, so who cares?

Let's use some completely arbitrary numbers with absolutely no scale or meaning to them:

The doppelganger takes Pandora from a 7 to a 10 and the daydreams take the Dreamer from a 4 to an 7. It's the same increase, but less noticeable because Pandora already starts out so powerful.

So to sum up: Karn is right, the doppelganger is NOT required to win with Pandora. I, however, think that it is an amazing model and Pandora should never leave home without it.

[McDoogle]

Due to time constraints I'm now playing alot of 25ss games. Basic formula of Pandora, a Sorrow, 2 stiched, a primordial magic totem and then either a big hitter or an IS and a 3rd stiched (noone loves these guys more than me!)

PM to give me an extra card and give me a second project emotions (on a cast of 1 less than Pandora-sweet). Useful but not oligatory.

My only failing with my beloved dolls is that models with hunter see straight through their fog. If i position the model behimg a wall, building or wood so their base cannot be seen at al, can these models still hit them, ass they are ignoring cover, or can they not see them because they cannot draw line of sight?

My understanding of this is that the fog obscures lofs- so models more than 3" cannot be seen except by models with hunet, but when your base is completely obscured from view by a terrain feature you are not in such as a wood, building, wall or crate pile u cannot be targeted......

am I right or wrong?

Thanks in advance! McDoogle

[Ratty]

Hunters still need a LOS to their target they just ignore cover modifiers to hit targets they can see and can see twice the distance through obscuring terrain.

[Zwergenkrieger]

Due to time constraints I'm now playing alot of 25ss games. Basic formula of Pandora, a Sorrow, 2 stiched, a primordial magic totem and then either a big hitter or an IS and a 3rd stiched (noone loves these guys more than me!)
What does IS mean?


I´m thinking about running Stichted Togethers with Pandora too in conjunction with a Mature Nephilim. I think that these would form a pretty nice tag team. Stichted Togethers provide obscuring and WP duels, Mature Nephilim is able to charge without LoS (therefore no disadvantage by your own obscuring fog), provides some melee power (against high WP models which Pandora can´t threaten that easy) and his Rip in Half cb trigger works well with Pandoras abilities, especially against crowds of opposing models.

So for 25 SS I´d like to try
Pandora
2 Stichted
Mature Nephilim
Any combination of Sorrows, Insidious Madness and/or Totem.

ZK

[karn987]

What does IS mean?


I´m thinking about running Stichted Togethers with Pandora too in conjunction with a Mature Nephilim. I think that these would form a pretty nice tag team. Stichted Togethers provide obscuring and WP duels, Mature Nephilim is able to charge without LoS (therefore no disadvantage by your own obscuring fog), provides some melee power (against high WP models which Pandora can´t threaten that easy) and his Rip in Half cb trigger works well with Pandoras abilities, especially against crowds of opposing models.

So for 25 SS I´d like to try
Pandora
2 Stichted
Mature Nephilim
Any combination of Sorrows, Insidious Madness and/or Totem.

ZK


I'm rather sure he meant Insideous Madness or something like that..


But that list will certainly work for you if you are careful about it. The worry comes from the general lack of long range Wp duels besides Pandora. Your already pushing 20ss with the mature and the S's, so that leaves you only 5 for Sorrows or Madness which is just 1 of either of them. I suppose if you know your going up against a blast heavy master, go with the Madness. Otherwise, the Sorrow all the way as it will simply net you more damage and survivability.

But the Mature with Pandora certainly works wonders. The Mature is a huge melee beast and his ability to charge without LoS is great for going through the fog, over buildings, etc. I personally prefer a model a bit more Wp heavy for my melee choice like Coppelius or Kade. But the Mature is certainly no slacker.

Just take care with your Stitched to set up their fog AFTER you do anything you need to through it ;D It happens really often that you will miss-time it and set up the fog before you do whatever you need to through it.

[magicpockets]

I run Pandy with Stitched and there one thing to really watch out for. Creeping Fog is great for a smoke screen ahead of your models, but when it ends at the end of the turn it can really leave you exposed until you get it back up again the turn after. Bear it in mind ;)

[McDoogle]

25ss

Pandora
Jack Daw
2 Stitched
Sorrow
Primordial Magic

Thoughts anyone???

[karn987]

25ss

Pandora
Jack Daw
2 Stitched
Sorrow
Primordial Magic

Thoughts anyone???


Ehh I'm not a fan of Jack Daw because my opponents know how to kill him to easily and I always seem to flip a black Joker with him and watch him turn on me -_-.

It will certainly work if you can keep Jack under control. It does leave you very vulnerable to high Wp models and worse yet, the few models out there that Pandora can't strip their immunity from.

Stitched are great, but their speed is a little lacking when coupled with their short range. I think you should probably drop them for things like Madness, Kade, Candy, Coppelius etc. Get something else in there because right now you have few models worth hiding. Pandora rarely needs to actually hide and Jack Daw ... well he is Jack Daw, that is a giant pain in everyones butt =D But that is how I would do it, and I have my own play styles and likes with Pandora.

The nice thing about Pandora really is that you can play her with just about any crew and she will do well. As long as you know how to control Pandora well, you should be fine. Just watch out for Jack. He is a powerful alley and a dangerous enemy.

[McDoogle]

Ehh I'm not a fan of Jack Daw because my opponents know how to kill him to easily and I always seem to flip a black Joker with him and watch him turn on me -_-.

It will certainly work if you can keep Jack under control. It does leave you very vulnerable to high Wp models and worse yet, the few models out there that Pandora can't strip their immunity from.

Stitched are great, but their speed is a little lacking when coupled with their short range. I think you should probably drop them for things like Madness, Kade, Candy, Coppelius etc. Get something else in there because right now you have few models worth hiding. Pandora rarely needs to actually hide and Jack Daw ... well he is Jack Daw, that is a giant pain in everyones butt =D But that is how I would do it, and I have my own play styles and likes with Pandora.

The nice thing about Pandora really is that you can play her with just about any crew and she will do well. As long as you know how to control Pandora well, you should be fine. Just watch out for Jack. He is a powerful alley and a dangerous enemy.

2 points 1 long, 1 short:

my regular list atm is

25ss
Pandora
2 Stitched
Coppelius
2 Sorrows

This has worked well, but coppelius hasnt worked so well against resses, but this may just be the way i'm playing him.

Ive been tempted to drop both sorrows ang go for a madness and a primordial magic, as unorthodox (or perhaps suicidal) as this may be.

The other option at this size is to drop one stitched and one sorrow and go for 2 madnesses. (I could never drop both, and dont really want to drop eiher stitched, i just LOVE them!)

I would be quicker, and have more woes. My experiences with the madnesses have been all bad (well ive used them twice and failed....) but I think that may well just be me. I'll re-read the tatica on them, and know they are great to stop re-grouping, but (in brief) how do you get the best out of them?

2ND:
Reason I asked about Jack is that I feel I need access to a big hitter other than coppelius. I take it Teddy really need Kade and the other is the hooded rider, but do ou have any other suggestions?

McDoogle

[Zwergenkrieger]

2ND:
Reason I asked about Jack is that I feel I need access to a big hitter other than coppelius. I take it Teddy really need Kade and the other is the hooded rider, but do ou have any other suggestions?

McDoogle

Some posts above we had a short discussion:

I´m thinking about running Stichted Togethers with Pandora too in conjunction with a Mature Nephilim. I think that these would form a pretty nice tag team. Stichted Togethers provide obscuring and WP duels, Mature Nephilim is able to charge without LoS (therefore no disadvantage by your own obscuring fog), provides some melee power (against high WP models which Pandora can´t threaten that easy) and his Rip in Half cb trigger works well with Pandoras abilities, especially against crowds of opposing models.


But the Mature with Pandora certainly works wonders. The Mature is a huge melee beast and his ability to charge without LoS is great for going through the fog, over buildings, etc. I personally prefer a model a bit more Wp heavy for my melee choice like Coppelius or Kade. But the Mature is certainly no slacker.

ZK

[karn987]

2 points 1 long, 1 short:

my regular list atm is

25ss
Pandora
2 Stitched
Coppelius
2 Sorrows

This has worked well, but coppelius hasnt worked so well against resses, but this may just be the way i'm playing him.

Ive been tempted to drop both sorrows ang go for a madness and a primordial magic, as unorthodox (or perhaps suicidal) as this may be.

The other option at this size is to drop one stitched and one sorrow and go for 2 madnesses. (I could never drop both, and dont really want to drop eiher stitched, i just LOVE them!)

I would be quicker, and have more woes. My experiences with the madnesses have been all bad (well ive used them twice and failed....) but I think that may well just be me. I'll re-read the tatica on them, and know they are great to stop re-grouping, but (in brief) how do you get the best out of them?


Really? Not much luck with Coppelius against Ressers? Sure he can't do much with his morale duel stuff, but he can still tool them with damage and make lots of alps off them. Could you go into more detail whats giving you an issue wit him?

But not to leave the rest of your post unattended to.. I would not drop the Sorrows unless you know you are going up against heavy Blast and AE damage. See my Tactica for the entry on Sorrows and give that a good read, there are a lot of reasons to take them. They are truly fantastic models.

But if they are not your style... keep the 2 stitched if you are enjoying them. The important thing is you have FUN (ack the swear word!) and not that your list is 100% tooled to uber pwn every none-1337 n00b out there (I feel dirty just from being near that sarcasm ><). So if you want 2 Stitched, lets stick with that and move on then alright?

25ss
Pandora
Stiched x2 10ss
Lilitu 7ss
Lelu 7ss
Total: 24ss

That is a list I use with a slight tweak to include the Stitched. The bonuses you get with this list are the raw power that the twins bring to any Neverborn list. Their companion activations are crushing if done right. Lilitu can generate several WP duels to feed Pandora as well as lure models to the generally slow ST's. Picture it like this..

"You see a beautiful women walking down the street towards you. Her beauty intoxicates you and you break from your squad, running to the unearthly beauty. As you reach her a chain whip snaps out from behind her and sends you spinning you into the broad chest of the Hulk with horns. The much larger Nephilim grabs your arms and liberates them from your body with little effort. Your fellows cry out in surprise and open fire, the shots barely seeming to hurt the hulking demon and those trying to fire at the beautiful vixen before can't bring themselves to raise their weapons against her. A cloud of fog rolls into view, obscuring the pair and hiding them from view"

The basic idea is that your Lure a model in from way out. You make sure to companion your Lelu so that when you bring it into range, your Lelu can just go right in on it and tear it apart. Depending on what your target is, Lilitu may not even want to hit the model so Irresistible remains at full power. Have Lilitu use Impure Thoughts if needed and let Lelu eat the model whole. Then roll in the Stitched Together and set up their Fog to shield the twins and maybe get in a Gamble your Life if in range. This lets you take out models 1 at a time with little threat to your own models. If Pandora went before hand, she should have Battle Trained he way up field, dumped debuffs on your enemy and come back with the edge of the battle train.

Also remember that Emotionally Exposed from Lilitu will help the Stitched Together in their Gamble and Gamble your Life abilities against targets. So you can help your cute little oogie boogies out with that.

So hopefully by now I have convinced you to give the Twins a try ;D Again my Tactica goes into more detail and Ill be happy to answer any questions you have.

Also don't think I forgot about them, for Insidious Madness I will admit they are a bit hard to get the most out of. My Tactica goes over a lot of the specific details so Ill try to keep it brief like you said. Their speed makes them amazing at capping objectives, so when you have a movement based Strategy they excell at that point. Coupled with Float and Spirit which a high side of average Df of 6, they can be quite a pain in the but to nail down. So skirt the edges of the field and chip away at targets with your ranged attack. Since yo ucan use it against the targets Wp, you kick Emotional Trauma into action and do even more wounds to the target.

I thik the hardest part about them is knowing when to bring them in close. Since Danger to Yourself and PE are amazing abilities. I guess the timing is when you need that kind of support. With Wk 8 and assuming they are hovering around at their 10" shot range, 1 walk puts them into range of both abilitys and Psychosis. So danger to Yourself is basically their melee attack since the ydon't have a specific once. You use it when your in melee or against a target that has something spiffy against ranged attacks. 2 Wds is fantastic and again its a Wp duel so queue Pandora (scary music).

PE is the hard one.. because it includes you its not an instant win debuff and generally you have to sacrifice the usefulness of the Madness for the turn to make use of it. Just be very warry of people with Obey! I had someone obey a Madness with PE up right back into pandora... wasnt fun ^^. But PE gives you that automatic debuff that helps you get around high Wp models and tackle masters easier. Generally if your going to debuff a Master, you will store up a high Card and burn a SS to cast Emotional Trauma for the Negative Flip on Wp duels. In most cases this is more then enough, but bad luck happens and the Black Joker is just mean, so thats where madness comes in. You walk into range and just pop PE. Hopefully you timed it right so that the master either can't get away from it, or has already activated. But at the same time, if this is the first model activating for the turn it can cause havoc because they will panic. If it catches a decent chunk of their crew in it, they are sure as heck going to try and kill it because they know what is coming next... Pandora is going to have a field day with them. Paired with Psychosis and Spirit, these guys have a decent chance of surviving whatever is going to activate to kill them.

So hopefully that all helps!



2ND:
Reason I asked about Jack is that I feel I need access to a big hitter other than coppelius. I take it Teddy really need Kade and the other is the hooded rider, but do ou have any other suggestions?

McDoogle

Eh I actually don't like Teddy with Kade. I don't like the whole My Bear thing, never had much luck with it. But as for a big hitter, Teddy can be fine but he is a bit slow and basically needs to stay out of LoS till he is close. His spell that can give him Flight is a great tool for this.

The Hooded Rider is just a great model and can really deal out a lot of damage. With his (I think it is called) Mounted Combat action, he can hit and run and basically harrass a flank while Pandora takes the center. Kade is cheap, deadly, and a huge pain in the ass for many people to deal with. Ht 1 means he can easily hide behind most terrain pieces and SweatBreads Trigger really bumps up his damage and the slow from it is just icing on the cake.

Beyond them you really can take any melee monster from Neverborn and get good function out of them. As mentioned the Mature Nephilim is very lethal, but don't forget about Lelu and Lilitu (who i talked a lot about above). There is always Bad Juju who can be a huge surprise to people who forget about him. Just put the mini off to the side and people very quickly forget he is there once Pandora starts tearing into things. You could always go with some of hte Mercs that we can take as well.

I guess... what do you want your big hitter to do? You do not need to have one, it is just useful to have the other type of damage. So don't feel forced into having one. But my favorites are in order from personal favorite down: Lelu, Kade, Coppelius.

[McDoogle]

Thanks for the speedy reply Karn, have read and will go over with tactica and books at the weekend, and will replu after I have mused... Many thanks as always

edit:when I say speedy I mean timely and epic in proportion, cheers

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Karn's statement about the twins is spot on. The twins which you can take up to 2 of each so I like to run 2 of one and 1 of other in higher ss games.
To illustrate the power of the twins, put lilitu high if you can so she can see over most cover. Games on a 3X3 are played with a 24" no man's land, couple this with lilitu's 18" lure that means once a model has moved at least 6" from deployment which most can they are now in range of her lure. If they only move a little she has either float or flight so she can stay on elevated terrain and move her walk 5" and still get 2 attempts.
Her CA with it is 8 and a mask during the flip will trigger a second free cast. It is important to keep her high when casting because the push can put the model behind cover and out of LOS.
I would disagree that you have to companion Lelu each time. It is good sometimes, but it also makes you lose a activation order. I only do this if the model I lured in has not activated. If the model has activated I usually don't companion and save the activation. Also the greatest reason not to do this in a Pandora list is because lure brings models into Pandora's range so she can battle train on turn 1 easier. No longer do you have to cast dementia to be able to put Pandora in your opponent's face turn 1. Another thing on Lelu field him in a position that will have him in melee range of Lilitu's lure, or in a position where he can charge. Remember he is the slower twin and the easier twin to kill.
These 2 are woes and are really hard to kill since they can pick off your opponents major hitters. I would argue they have more synergy with Pandora than any of the other masters. This synergy pushes for Pandora to have a more melee strong crew they can also work great if you want to bring mature/young nephlims or terror tots to mature to young or mature, since they have drink blood.

[McDoogle]

Coppelius- Against Seamus- kept him in cove or melees, but he companioned and lured away the belle i was in combat with then flintlocked him...... Should have trigger-flee Seamus with Pandora first I think.

Sorrows- I completly agree that they are all-round awesome, and that I need to get Pandora closer so that their abilities can be used to their fullest. I ran three, then 2, and have now started to run 1. Alot of the reasons are situational, but in a 25ss game, when im bringing 6 models and 2+ are insignifcant so dont count for objectives and some strategies Ive found myself at a big disadvantage. Furthermore, my opponents are well aware hitting them is the best way to hurt Pandora (blasts).

Im not questioning their value or efficacy, just that their insignificant trait (whilst balanced/fair) is putting me at a disadvadvntage with alot of the schemes we pl;ay (my regular opponent always has a small gleam of mirth in his eyes when I place sorrows for most of our games, being quick to remind me they are insignificant!!!!lol)

As for that list, I love it as an alternative, and could even bring myslef to drop a stitched and grab a pair of sorrows or maybe even Kade into the bargain.... I love the story btw! I have used them with Lilith, and (whilst knowing they are all 3 'main' types as neverborn) as being more appropriate, thematically, to The dreamer and Lilith. Long gone is that flawed way of thinking!!!

I read over and have seen the trick I was missing (I'm even thinking 2 lilitu at 30ss would be a laugh, maybe Pandora, lelu, 2 lilitu, 2 stitched and a sorrow.....) due to my silly ideas about what "nature" the neverborn are (if anything they remind me of the "perfect construct/undeads types without being specifically named as such:they incorporate all the best rules of these models!!!). I will let you know how they go!

[Complete aside from a thought I have just had- Can I hit Pandora (as a friendly model) with WP resist spells, win with Pnadora and use fading memory to push when winning. Is the illegal/unfair/unsporting/unessecary in your opinion? ]

I'll play a few game with the IM and see if I can use them to better effect ith some practice. Thanks for the input on them!

Kade over coppelius??! I know hes a sorrow cheaper, but Coppelius is my fav of them. I have reread tactica and see he can be cool- I play a counter attacking style of play, and dont think I could take sorrows and Kade- id use them both with Pandora (again im talking about smaller games now!) Is it worth dropping a stitched for him (i love the gambling spells- used after PE its lethal, and my main output of damage. Im thinking lure stuff, let ig go, make it flee with negatives wp for pe wthen gamble it to kill it (cheating up to 7dmg were possible, Pandora causes a wound, and lelu can cause an extra 2- on an average dmg flip I can cause lots of wounds, not including lelu and lilitus potential melee dmg.

The real question is i suppose for starting trialing this list I will have to go lelu, lilitu, x1 stitched. Do i then go for another, Kade, 2 sorrows, or lose 1 from s cache to bag another lilitu?

Thanks for your epic post, its been incredibly helpful (and persudaded me to base up my lilitu, lelu,
and Kade, as well as alps, dopple ganger and 3rd stitched ((like having the option and am thinking collodi...)) )

Cheers Karn

Also thanks to Mr B- read yur post and took it all on board before replying to this post-seom great input. Thanks tp you both!!!!

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I read over and have seen the trick I was missing (I'm even thinking 2 lilitu at 30ss would be a laugh, maybe Pandora, lelu, 2 lilitu, 2 stitched and a sorrow.....) due to my silly ideas about what "nature" the neverborn are (if anything they remind me of the "perfect construct/undeads types without being specifically named as such:they incorporate all the best rules of these models!!!). I will let you know how they go!

That list would be 34ss. Lilitu for the most part is good by herself pair with 2 Lelus because she can do the infinite lure. I have been able to pull in 2 models in same turn to be able to hit each with a lelu.
I am ancious for Nekima to come out, I wan to run her with a pair and terror tots with Pandora. I enjoy playing Pandora with a melee focus.

[McDoogle]

Another quick q- know stargazer has already asked this in another hread somewhere but:

hypothetically speaking, if my stitched is killed, but remains in play (to be removed at the end of the turn) can I sacrifice it to someone a lelu/lilitu? I know it can't be buried, but is there a ruling here. Seems situational, unlike burying, as it needs limited cards (especially a lelu)

[McDoogle]

That L&L/stitched list did really well against a resse list. It wasnt an optimum/conventional list by anyones stadards, and my flips were spot on every time so luck and selection (opponent was trying some new models he'd painted rather nicely).

Won with no losses (as in models) by 5 vp to 0vp (alhough lelu nd lilitu were both insignificant by the end of the game)

Pandora, 2 stitched, lelu and lilitu v seamus, grave spirit, flesh construct, sybelle, punk zombie and belle.

I flipped "escape and survive" and my opponent flipped "turf war", with a pitched battle set up.

(will finish post later as have stuff to attend to....)

back- Turn 1 I lured his Flesh construct with lilitu, and had killed it by the start of turn 2 with a stitched. His crew quickly consolidated and went down my right flank, and he was in my deployment zone pretty quickly.

Pandora managed to make sybelle flee, and she died on the last turn of the game, while lelu and lilitu, over the course of 3 turns (and with a little help from emotional trauma) dealt with the punk zombie, 3 belles (2 summoned) and seamus.

Flips, especially initiative flips went my way, so I had some luck.

Learning points- 2 stitched were useful, but one was lethal, the other covered the other flank at the start the game and struggled to make an impact, although this wasnt really an issue in this game. His presence did allow me to gain 2 of my 5 vps.

Pandoras line of sight became obscured by my own stitched, but to be fair seamus didnt get a single flintlock off so i cant complain.

Again, Kade or an Insidious Madness + totem are viable alternatives, but i will keep playing with 2 stitched for now. Any thoughts on the poltergeist totem??? Not to keen on Kade initialy tho s he also needs crows for triggers...thats 3 models who would use them

1 talking point that came out of the game was:

if Pandora targets a defender in line of sight in cover with incite etc, or stitched uses gamble your life, does the attacker receive a negative flip? thought (to be annoyance) they did, but my opponents are now saying they are unsure. Can anyone clarify please?

@ Ratty: We found it this morning, but thanks for the reply mate. Makes complete sense!

Lilitu give me range, and allows Pandora to get stuck in earlier if I'm lucky. Lelu is a beast and the crew worked really well on its first outing. Will need a sterner test against a more conventional list next time tho. Thanks to all who have contributed.......

[Ratty]

Another quick q- know stargazer has already asked this in another hread somewhere but:

hypothetically speaking, if my stitched is killed, but remains in play (to be removed at the end of the turn) can I sacrifice it to someone a lelu/lilitu? I know it can't be buried, but is there a ruling here. Seems situational, unlike burying, as it needs limited cards (especially a lelu)

Nope it says it can't be sacrificed after the Does Not Die effect is on the model.

[Drifter]

Maybe a good place to ask a question about pandora without opening a new thread, if not, well, sorry.

I'm playing a tournament on the following weekend and the one game I know about is slaughter or a line in the sand or treasure hunt against von Schill and his crew.

My gang is set and will look like this:
Pandora
Lelu & Lilitu
Kade & Candy
Poltergeist
(30 SS total)

The scenario I worry about is slaughter, because I will have to burn lots of SS to WP this stubborn lot to death and they are quite capable in melee too. So what would you do from a pandora kind of perspective? Suggestions for any other scenarios? Will go against the vics and So'mer too.

Thanks and cheers,

Drifter

[xxXhayzelXxx]

Good luck deary! Have some sweeties to help get you buzzing! :D

[McDoogle]

Maybe a good place to ask a question about pandora without opening a new thread, if not, well, sorry.

I'm playing a tournament on the following weekend and the one game I know about is slaughter or a line in the sand or treasure hunt against von Schill and his crew.

My gang is set and will look like this:
Pandora
Lelu & Lilitu
Kade & Candy
Poltergeist
(30 SS total)

The scenario I worry about is slaughter, because I will have to burn lots of SS to WP this stubborn lot to death and they are quite capable in melee too. So what would you do from a pandora kind of perspective? Suggestions for any other scenarios? Will go against the vics and So'mer too.

Thanks and cheers,

Drifter


Others will give more constructive advice, so please listen to anything they say over me!!!!

1)Stubborn should not work when they try to attack her, as she is the defender for that purpose.

2)Cheat high and soulstone grunts with project emotions and make them run away. During this period you will have lots of time when they have negative flips (or maybe even double negative, as they are fleeing and affected by project emotions) You can then hit them with self loathing etc and pick them off one at a time.

3) wouldnt take lilitu and candy. I would go for either a second lilitu or a lelu. Lilitu allows you to lure twice as much (so upto 6 attempts plus the trigger if they are in range), and allows any models in range to heal upto 2wds per liitu, much better than candys sweets ability imo.(i suspect others may disagree) This will be particularly effective if you hit your targets with project emotions (say 2 freikorps). They may have stubborn but at are negatvie or double negative so cant cheat.

4) Lelu, Kade and Pandora all ideally want crows...with a control hand of 6 you arent going to get that many, so again I might go for a different model to free up free drain blood on lelu and flee trigger on Pandora.

5)Coppelius can make living targets run away and lose wounds easily: instead of candy perhaps?

In short, I would try to make some run away, lure some and deal with 1 at a time. And when you hit von schill, do it hard, preferably with a lelu/lilitu alpha strike!!

Hope some of this helps, there are other far more knowledgable than me (who i hope will correct me if any of this is wrong!), but that is what I would do!!!

Karn has said to me before most models will work with Pandora, so you should be fine if u play it right! Gd luck at the torny and hoped something in here helps, one way or another!!!!!!

edit:noticed re-reading you said your crew was set-in this case, Project emotions, make some flee, desbuff others, lure, slap with Kade and lelu, repeat next turn. Beast von schill when the opportunity arises, or just keep making him run away!!!! Get him to a board edge then make him flee again!!!

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Against freekorps it is best to remember that lilitu's ca is 8 when casting lure , which is the same or higher then the whole army even with stubborn. The defender has to beat the cast totaling, you still win with a tie, that means 1 wd for each time they get lured. With that said. Thousand cuts works just as good on them.
I would suggest dropping Kade and poltergiest for the doppleganger, double the emotional trauma damage and pull them in, it generally takes at least 2 lures once they are in the 12" range to get into Lilitu's melee range, that means the model is now down to 2 wounds, if Lilitu's free strike doesn't kill them then charge with lelu and you got a dead korps man.
Targeting Von Schill, spam wp duels on him make him burn his ss, then he will easily fall prey to your attacks. His mobility makes him a major threat, I usually focus on taking him down first. For 3 major reasons, one I don't like when he gives his army slow to die, second he is the fastest moving model, as long as he is on the board he threatens all of your army, last but not least he is usually the closest model to target since he is so damn fast, so I usually start my lures and battle train with him.
His first target will likely be the doppleganger so protect her, copying the WP duel defense and Emotional Trauma along with placing her btb with Pandora makes her very tough for him to take down.
The librarian is a major threat to since he will spam heal all the wounds you just did, taking him out is another big priority, so make sure you kill whatever you target, the twins alpha strike works great for this.
Remember you hit harder and faster with the nightmares, but you are susceptible to counerattacks. Candy's 8 wds and 7 df makes her your toughest model, push her into the fray and tie up his advance. Just don't bother tieing up Von Schill.
The biggest thing I fear when facing Von Schill is if his crew is in range to gain slow to die. If I am having to face slow to die after killing one of his models means he gets another attack before he goes.

[karn987]

Well it looks like our loyal Pandorites have already answered the question pretty much =D

@Mr Bigglesworth: Btw man, try to add more blank lines to your posts. They come out as a block of text and are very very hard to read >< The forums kills a lot of formating, but blank lines is not one of them.

Otherwise I think everything is covered here except... your worrying to much about Stubborn man. If you can get Project Emotions Pitty or get a Maddness into range to use PE, you can pretty much assure that you win the duels any way. Though a big mistake you are making is focusing heavily on the WP duels aspect of the game against a Stubborn Crew. Stubborn isn't that bad and really all it means is that they actually have a chance against her (I know, how dare they).

So you have Lelu which will eat Freikorps for Breakfast and Kade isn't to shabby himself, especially with his Sweatbreads trigger. The big thing you have to do is just keep up the assault. If you go in to kill them, then make sure they die. Biggles already pointed out how annoying the Librarian can be. So make sure to either A) kill your targets outright or B) Kill/nuter the Librarian. Dementia is a great spell against her because the Wp duels it caused won't let her get Stubborn to help her out because their is no defender in that kind of duel! So Dementia + Project Emotions Pitty = 80% chance of doing nothing all turn long and getting hurt for it. Or you could just Lure her out if she gives you LoS to her.

The Poltergeist is ok in my opinion but you would probably be better of with the extra 2ss to your cache since your going up against a generally hearty crew. I personally see totems as a nice addon, but the ss can some times be more worth it.

While I love Candy up and down, you may want to consider Coppelius like others have said. Or switch out Candy and the Polter for 2 Stitched Togethers or Candy for 2 Sorrows depending on your play style. Now you may be thinking "Sorrows against a Wp resistent crew? Bah!" well their is a reason for it... Pandora with 2 Sorrows will drop that crew like it was nothing if she can win the Wp Duels against them. Freikorps are semi-low Wds once you get by their defenses.

In the end, people often flail when they see Stubborn and honestly, it's not that bad if you use your debuffs often enough. Project Emotions Pity and the Madness PE are the way to go for this.

[McDoogle]

Stubborn isn't that bad and really all it means is that they actually have a chance against her (I know, how dare they).




Not on is it. Presumptious upstarts!

[Drifter]

Yay, first, thanks for all replies and the good ideas. Considering the advice, I think its right not to focus too much on the WP thing and go for melee.

One thing I thought of is to incite the librarian because she will have to heal first or not at all... By now, I'm worrying mote about the second crew to face, the mad hatter himself with an attitude to lower my WP and lure me near his flintlock. Ah, will see what happens :)

Thank you all and cheers from Berlin,

Drifter

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Against the mad hatter I run a stronger WP crew because it by passes all the hard to wounds. It is a little harder to run melee against the undead, they have decent defense and decent amount of wounds.

Karn thanks for the advice, I some times post from my phone, it is a little harder to use spacing and edit. Still trying to learn how to type on the screen.

[McDoogle]

Yay, first, thanks for all replies and the good ideas. Considering the advice, I think its right not to focus too much on the WP thing and go for melee.

One thing I thought of is to incite the librarian because she will have to heal first or not at all... By now, I'm worrying mote about the second crew to face, the mad hatter himself with an attitude to lower my WP and lure me near his flintlock. Ah, will see what happens :)

Thank you all and cheers from Berlin,

Drifter

I regularly play seamus, and a good lelu-lilitu combo can plain eat him. Get project emotions off and make them run. He can only summon 1 belle per turn with seamus, i would whittle them down and when I hit seamus hit him hard with 3-4 models. Sybelle is a good one to target early on as she lets his crew companion, and copycat can be a pain in the arseso watch out!!!!!

[McDoogle]

Quick few question to have come out of some recent games. the guys i play with who taugh me to play have always believed wp-wp duels and my spells from pandora, WHICH DO NOT HAVE A RANGED ICON have suffered from a minus flip.

In short, this is wp-wp duels caused by stitched, incite/pacify and my spells such as self loathe/project emotions/dementia from pandora affected by soft cover, making me take a negative flip on the cast action, or are wp-wp duels, despite being a type of duel unaffected by cover?

Id be playing that they were, and would be happy if they were not. just wondering if anyone could clear this up for me???

Other point (which has been answered, but I cannot find the thread for the life of me, is a morale duel a type of wp-wp duel, or vice versa? I think it was a wp-wp duel is a sub-section of morale duel.....

Thanks in advance, McDoogle

[karn987]

Quick few question to have come out of some recent games. the guys i play with who taugh me to play have always believed wp-wp duels and my spells from pandora, WHICH DO NOT HAVE A RANGED ICON have suffered from a minus flip.

In short, this is wp-wp duels caused by stitched, incite/pacify and my spells such as self loathe/project emotions/dementia from pandora affected by soft cover, making me take a negative flip on the cast action, or are wp-wp duels, despite being a type of duel unaffected by cover?

Id be playing that they were, and would be happy if they were not. just wondering if anyone could clear this up for me???

Other point (which has been answered, but I cannot find the thread for the life of me, is a morale duel a type of wp-wp duel, or vice versa? I think it was a wp-wp duel is a sub-section of morale duel.....

Thanks in advance, McDoogle

Oh heck no. Cover ONLY effects Ranged Attacks. Now a spell with a Gun Icon in the range is a Ranged Attack Spell and are the ONLY ones that have to deal with cover. Otherwise, NOTHING else deals with it really.

So all those things you said, they are NOT effected by cover because they are NOT ranged attacks. Things like Incite/Pacify/Gamble Your Life are just duels against a target in range. You need LoS, but you get no cover against them.

Also a Morale duel IS a type of Wp duel.

In short, any duel using a stat is a duel of that type inaddition to whatever else it is.

So a Morale Duel is a Wp duel. A strike with a weapon is a Cb Duel and an attack Duel. Resisting a spell with a Wp resist is a Wp duel and a resist duel etc.

[karn987]

Against the mad hatter I run a stronger WP crew because it by passes all the hard to wounds. It is a little harder to run melee against the undead, they have decent defense and decent amount of wounds.

Karn thanks for the advice, I some times post from my phone, it is a little harder to use spacing and edit. Still trying to learn how to type on the screen.

No problem man, it happens all the time. Just wanted to let you know before it goes on for to long heh.

[McDoogle]

Oh heck no. Cover ONLY effects Ranged Attacks. Now a spell with a Gun Icon in the range is a Ranged Attack Spell and are the ONLY ones that have to deal with cover. Otherwise, NOTHING else deals with it really.

So all those things you said, they are NOT effected by cover because they are NOT ranged attacks. Things like Incite/Pacify/Gamble Your Life are just duels against a target in range. You need LoS, but you get no cover against them.

Also a Morale duel IS a type of Wp duel.

In short, any duel using a stat is a duel of that type inaddition to whatever else it is.

So a Morale Duel is a Wp duel. A strike with a weapon is a Cb Duel and an attack Duel. Resisting a spell with a Wp resist is a Wp duel and a resist duel etc.


(gives out the longest sigh EVER) the number of times i've taken minus flips on the spells and duels...or havent even bothered... I thought it never really made any sense...

Oh well, cleared up now, cheers dude: BRING ON THE PANDA

[karn987]

(gives out the longest sigh EVER) the number of times i've taken minus flips on the spells and duels...or havent even bothered... I thought it never really made any sense...

Oh well, cleared up now, cheers dude: BRING ON THE PANDA

Never be afraid to ask my friend ;) There are no stupid questions here.

[McDoogle]

Never be afraid to ask my friend ;) There are no stupid questions here.

Thankyou master, the terror tot of the forum is grateful....

[WUWU]

Oh heck no. Cover ONLY effects Ranged Attacks. Now a spell with a Gun Icon in the range is a Ranged Attack Spell and are the ONLY ones that have to deal with cover. Otherwise, NOTHING else deals with it really.

So all those things you said, they are NOT effected by cover because they are NOT ranged attacks. Things like Incite/Pacify/Gamble Your Life are just duels against a target in range. You need LoS, but you get no cover against them.

Also a Morale duel IS a type of Wp duel.

In short, any duel using a stat is a duel of that type inaddition to whatever else it is.

So a Morale Duel is a Wp duel. A strike with a weapon is a Cb Duel and an attack Duel. Resisting a spell with a Wp resist is a Wp duel and a resist duel etc.

Unless something has changed recently, as far as I'm aware, you don't actually need LOS for abilities if it doesn't specifically say LOS is required. So Incite/Pacify/Gamble Your Life could all be used from behind walls or around cover

[Ropetus]

Unless something has changed recently, as far as I'm aware, you don't actually need LOS for abilities if it doesn't specifically say LOS is required. So Incite/Pacify/Gamble Your Life could all be used from behind walls or around cover
Wrong. All abilities require LoS to the target. Incite, Pacify and Gamble Your Life all target enemy models and thsu require LoS.

This does not apply if the ability does not target a model (an Aura for example) or if the ability states it ignores LoS (Austringers for example).

-Ropetus

[WUWU]

Wrong. All abilities require LoS to the target. Incite, Pacify and Gamble Your Life all target enemy models and thsu require LoS.

This does not apply if the ability does not target a model (an Aura for example) or if the ability states it ignores LoS (Austringers for example).

-Ropetus

I appreciate this ruling, and it makes much more sense, but is this something you are making a judgement call on right now, or is there something in the books or errata you are referencing?

Seems this is contradictory to the (vague) ruling made here:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14973

I haven't seen anything that suggests abilities require LoS, whether they say "target" or not, in the books or errata.

[Sandwich]

Sandwich understands problem.

We're confusing Abilities and Actions.

Incite and Pacify are both Actions, both require LoS to use.

The Box Opens is an ability.

Abilities NEVER require LoS unless specifically noted.

Actions will ALWAYS require LoS unless specifically noted.

So you're both right, but a little misguided.

WUWU that was why when you told me about that I didn't understand, because you said Abilities.
And I agreed because you don't need LoS for a model's ability to take effect.

But to do Actions and most spells, you need LoS.

[WUWU]

This is such a mess. The new rule book can't get here fast enough.


I'm going to assume Ropetus meant actions above, instead of abilities, for the sake of the argument.

There is nothing in the rulebooks that say actions require line of sight, only strikes and spells are specifically mentioned.

The problem comes from "Attack" being defined in the errata, without any changes to the LoS rules.

Pg. 24 Line of Sight


Many game actions, such as making a ranged attack or charging, require Line of Sight

Many game actions, huh?

now, it later goes on to say -without any previous mentioned of attack, mind you-


If, for any reason, an acting model does not have LoS to its declared target, the attack is not legal...

There is a similar sentence in the Strike section of the rule book as well

Now, maybe my brain is just broken or something, but this doesn't read that "anything that targets requires line of sight"

Ignoring the fact that this MAJOR RULE is hidden under a different sub heading (strikes) and only makes sense after the attack errata, it still doesn't mean anything that targets requires line of sight, only attacks. So, for instance, Candy's Sweets could target a friendly model without having line of sight because it's not an attack, even though it targets. That's just off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are other examples.

I would love it if someone could point me to the section that says, "everything that targets requires line of sight" because I think I'm going crazy looking for it.

edit: took me about two seconds to find another action. Shikome's Hunting Partner, it targets but is not an attack, so would not require line of sight.

edit again: Most of Kirai's crew have similar actions... target a friendly model within x", no damage is inflicted and no resist flip

[Ropetus]

Keyword is target. If a Talent requires a target, it also requires LoS to the target, unless otherwise specified.

Gamble Your Life!: "Target model blaa blaa blaa..." requires LoS because it has a target.

Illusionist: "Switch this model and friendly Showgirl within 18"." has no target, thus no LoS is required.

-Ropetus

[karn987]

This is such a mess. The new rule book can't get here fast enough.


I'm going to assume Ropetus meant actions above, instead of abilities, for the sake of the argument.

There is nothing in the rulebooks that say actions require line of sight, only strikes and spells are specifically mentioned.

The problem comes from "Attack" being defined in the errata, without any changes to the LoS rules.

Pg. 24 Line of Sight



Many game actions, huh?

now, it later goes on to say -without any previous mentioned of attack, mind you-



There is a similar sentence in the Strike section of the rule book as well

Now, maybe my brain is just broken or something, but this doesn't read that "anything that targets requires line of sight"

Ignoring the fact that this MAJOR RULE is hidden under a different sub heading (strikes) and only makes sense after the attack errata, it still doesn't mean anything that targets requires line of sight, only attacks. So, for instance, Candy's Sweets could target a friendly model without having line of sight because it's not an attack, even though it targets. That's just off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are other examples.

I would love it if someone could point me to the section that says, "everything that targets requires line of sight" because I think I'm going crazy looking for it.

edit: took me about two seconds to find another action. Shikome's Hunting Partner, it targets but is not an attack, so would not require line of sight.

edit again: Most of Kirai's crew have similar actions... target a friendly model within x", no damage is inflicted and no resist flip

WUWU, your letting yourself get way to tied up man. Target implies LoS and unless it states target or something like that, then it does not require LoS.

Ropey has it right. The key word IS Target. Just let it go at that man. The Rules Manual should fix this, just let it be at this for now before you get yourself twisted into even more knots ok man?

Action, Attack, etc, if it states Target it NEEDS LoS. Gamble your Life is a primary example of this because it is not an attack, yet states Target and thus requires LoS.

You know the intention now man, that should be enough to keep playing with it =)

[McDoogle]

I have 3 q's, all of which arose during a recent game and re.Pandora:

a) does she get to push when she succssfully casts a spell which uses a wp stat as its resist? I says wp duel, not wp wp duel on the card..... I may be wrong, but I thought she counted as successfully casting and winning a wp duel.

b)When Pandora casts project emotions on a mask crow, is it only the original model that is affected by the trigger. As each model makes a resist duel separetly i thought the trigger would apply to all, but again I may be wrong

c)I thought that if a defender drew with an attackers duel total when the were casting a spell it was cancelled, but have been told instead that the attacker, not the defender, wins the duel. Is this the case (I hope it is!!!!)

Thanks, Mcdoogle

[96p]

a) no
b) all who fail their resist have to run
c) attacker wins the duell

[Mike3838]

a) For the enemy it's a WP duel but for Pandora it's a CA duel, hence no Fading Memory.
b) Not sure on this one tbh
c) The defender needs to exceed the attacker's duel total to successfully defend - it's not enough to just tie

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

b)When Pandora casts project emotions on a mask crow, is it only the original model that is affected by the trigger. As each model makes a resist duel separetly i thought the trigger would apply to all, but again I may be wrong


Answers yes trigger states that defenders who lose the resist duel fall back.
The spell says models under blast make a resist duel.

Language shows that any model who loses the defense against the spell will be impacted by trigger. Will check rules manual to see if triggers are only limited to original target.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Page 26 second paragraph last sentence.
Additional models are not affected by the trigger unless it is stated otherwise in its description.Take it as you will.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I thought that was the case just got done reading triggers and was about to update. So b is clearly a no.

[96p]

It was too good anyways ;)

[karn987]

Wow I didn't even get a chance to reply heh. All looks good.

How goes Pandora McDoogle?

[Ratty]

Wow I didn't even get a chance to reply heh. All looks good.

How goes Pandora McDoogle?

He's doing very well with her.. My Zoraida still managed to just pull off a win though.

[karn987]

He's doing very well with her.. My Zoraida still managed to just pull off a win though.


Oh you and McDoogle play? Awesome =D

It's odd to say, but I'm always glad to see people beat Pandora =D. Helps discredit the OP none-sense.

[Ratty]

Oh you and McDoogle play? Awesome =D

It's odd to say, but I'm always glad to see people beat Pandora =D. Helps discredit the OP none-sense.

I have better than average luck, I've played her a lot of times and have only lost once. Saying that I do think she is slightly overpowered. Part of me does wonder why she has such a large SS cache.

[McDoogle]

Wow I didn't even get a chance to reply heh. All looks good.

How goes Pandora McDoogle?

Very well thankyou. As Ratty said I narrowly lost to his beautifly painted Z crew: rules for reconnoiter have changed and Pandora does not like will power 10 models. I learned (finally) not to spearhead with the twins, and they died turn 2 (von schill and voodoos conduit). lost by one vp, very close!!!

I still had a stitched and Pandora against Z but just couldnt het through her wp, and I killed von schill and the doppleganger by making them flee! Huzzah!

Quick q) Karn- is rllying still an all action, i.e. if I cast dementia on a fleeing model and it fails its wp duel, does it keep running, or does it just rally and have to take wp duels tro use its zero actions and to pass twice?

Hope all is well and regards, McDoogle.

[Ratty]

Quick q) Karn- is rllying still an all action, i.e. if I cast dementia on a fleeing model and it fails its wp duel, does it keep running, or does it just rally and have to take wp duels tro use its zero actions and to pass twice?

Hope all is well and regards, McDoogle.

It will rally as rallying isn't taking an action. Also remember you don't have to pass when rallying you just can't make movement actions.

[karn987]

Yeah what Ratty said.

Thankfully some of the teeth have been removed from falling back. Once that falling back model activates, they rally then. Rules manual FTW XD But it is still an extremely dangerous effect. So no more using Dementia to lock a model into falling back =)

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Wow I didn't even get a chance to reply heh. All looks good.

How goes Pandora McDoogle?Someone feeling a little left out.;)


Don't worry Karn, we just want to get your back every now and then. We will leave the tricky ones to you. :guns:

[McDoogle]

Yeah what Ratty said.

Thankfully some of the teeth have been removed from falling back. Once that falling back model activates, they rally then. Rules manual FTW XD But it is still an extremely dangerous effect. So no more using Dementia to lock a model into falling back =)


I agree,I no longer feel I have to apologise for using the trigger!!!!

But Insidious Madness hysteria ability (i think thats the rallying wp-wp and a - flip for both models due to another ability) still works, right?

How about:

Pandora
2x IM 8ss
2x Stitched 10ss
Primodial magic 2ss
either a 3rd stitched or an insidious madness, or, more likely, a sorrow and cache 7.

It would be an alternative to the lelu/lilitu 25ss list I run, mainly for missons like plant evidence and reconnoiter, and as i quicker list based on maximising emotional trauma, and pandoras spells (with a - to wp and fleeing effects)

I coiuld drop the PM and take a sorrow and a 3rd IM as well.... thoughts?

[karn987]

I agree,I no longer feel I have to apologise for using the trigger!!!!

But Insidious Madness hysteria ability (i think thats the rallying wp-wp and a - flip for both models due to another ability) still works, right?

How about:

Pandora
2x IM 8ss
2x Stitched 10ss
Primodial magic 2ss
either a 3rd stitched or an insidious madness, or, more likely, a sorrow and cache 7.

It would be an alternative to the lelu/lilitu 25ss list I run, mainly for missons like plant evidence and reconnoiter, and as i quicker list based on maximising emotional trauma, and pandoras spells (with a - to wp and fleeing effects)

I coiuld drop the PM and take a sorrow and a 3rd IM as well.... thoughts?

No that is certainly a solid looking list. I would take the Sorrow so that Pandora can bump up her threat a bit and at the same time have a little extra protection against dirrect attacks.

That will certainly work, IM are great for any objective capping and with proper placements you can make them a pain in hte but to deal with.

[McDoogle]

No that is certainly a solid looking list. I would take the Sorrow so that Pandora can bump up her threat a bit and at the same time have a little extra protection against dirrect attacks.

That will certainly work, IM are great for any objective capping and with proper placements you can make them a pain in hte but to deal with.

clcl.

er, how do you deal with zoroida btw? Pandora couldnt touch her the other week!!

And the hooded rider- seemingly rated by everyone bar myself as an obvious inclusion in my pandora list, what to you think?

[karn987]

clcl.

er, how do you deal with zoroida btw? Pandora couldnt touch her the other week!!

And the hooded rider- seemingly rated by everyone bar myself as an obvious inclusion in my pandora list, what to you think?


Well if I know I am going up against Zoraida, I will take an all melee crew with Pandora. The Rider, Kade, Teddy, etc and just try to either attack her with overwhelming force, or take a fast crew and focus on objectives. But yes, otherwise Zoraida is hard to directly assault with Wp duels, but you can always just deal with her crew first and then hopefully avoid/ignore her if you don't have the ranged/melee to deal with her.


As for the Rider, well I love him with Pandora because of his Hit and run ability really. Mounted Combat is a great ability and with the right cycle of his main ability (Forget the name) you can deal with most any situation. Sure he doesn't have any direct synergy with Pandora, but Pandora actually benefits from that. Because when she hyper focuses to much on Wp based attacks, masters like Zoraida are going to be a pain in the but. So it's always good to have a big melee monster with you and the Rider's speed and diversity makes him the most appealing in my opinion.

[McDoogle]

Well if I know I am going up against Zoraida, I will take an all melee crew with Pandora. The Rider, Kade, Teddy, etc and just try to either attack her with overwhelming force, or take a fast crew and focus on objectives. But yes, otherwise Zoraida is hard to directly assault with Wp duels, but you can always just deal with her crew first and then hopefully avoid/ignore her if you don't have the ranged/melee to deal with her.


As for the Rider, well I love him with Pandora because of his Hit and run ability really. Mounted Combat is a great ability and with the right cycle of his main ability (Forget the name) you can deal with most any situation. Sure he doesn't have any direct synergy with Pandora, but Pandora actually benefits from that. Because when she hyper focuses to much on Wp based attacks, masters like Zoraida are going to be a pain in the but. So it's always good to have a big melee monster with you and the Rider's speed and diversity makes him the most appealing in my opinion.

Hmmm, ok will give an anti-z list another go.

I asked as he seems fragile...only one way to find out!!!

Cheers Karn